A Solution for Hakuba

[indosnm 0]

If I find a nice secret surf spot what we do is usually keep it quiet and protect it. Same goes for powder!

Although 47's trees s weren't really secret it seems publicity thru this forum about them would have helped to increase people's knowledge about them, thus a greater number people going there, thus making the ski patrol even more aware etc etc etc.

Also alot of gaijin here get a "I am a gaijin and I am larger than life and can do whatever i want!" kind of mentality. well if the rules say don7t go there and you do and get busted just suffer the concies! ( although if I was tackled as our good mate Barok was the Ski Patrol would have copped it as that is means for self defense)

[Davo 1]

Where do you draw the line SKI? I guess that's up to the individual-mine just happens to be drawn under the ropes a lot of the time. The more that people act like I do the more likely the chance there is of a more reasonable approach emerging.

[SKI 15]

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Where do you draw the line SKI? I guess that's up to the individual-mine just happens to be drawn under the ropes a lot of the time. The more that people act like I do the more likely the chance there is of a more reasonable approach emerging.

Where do I draw the line? Well, usually where the rules tell me to. It shouldn't really be up to the individual - that is why there are rules. If everyone flaunted rules they didn't agree with or didn't like in everyday life, it would not be nice.

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The more that people act like I do the more likely the chance there is of a more reasonable approach emerging.

Possibly.
But also quite possibly the complete opposite.

The more that people act like you do, possibly the more likely that:

- there will be trouble;

- some resorts may become stricter than they are now (I am not saying that is a good thing);

- the more likely the general image of foreigners will be tainted (I am not saying that this is justified or logical, and I know that some of you probably do not care about this at all).

I have been in Japan getting on for 8 years now.

Thanks!

[Davo 1]

Damn -you picked my argument fully apart! Yes maybe it'll make things worse ,but maybe not. Perhaps I should bow to your superior knowledge of the situation as you have been here for 8 years after all. Let me question you on this though-How long have you been sking at the resort in question? I have been observing the situation for 3 years and the number of people riding in the naughty zone(s) has increased to the point where they're often as tracked out as the runs. Now that's what I call an awful mess. As for foreigners developing a bad rep- do you mean to tell me that you've been here for 8 years and you haven't detected that attitude from a large percentage of the population anyway?

[jared 0]

As more people start skiing in the trees, more people are going to get into trouble in there (by numbers not because its super dangerous), the more the patrol are going to be told by their bosses to keep people out of the trees, the more anal patrol will become as its the them who will be under pressure from managemant to stop ppl from going there.

until someone makes a big decision to allow it.

[Ocean11 0]

Or until someone, Japanese or foreign, punches a heavy-handed patroller right in the face and breaks their nose.

 

Or until a heavy-handed patroller actually causes a customer an injury that requires hospitalization.

 

Could happen any time now...

[SKI 15]

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As for foreigners developing a bad rep- do you mean to tell me that you've been here for 8 years and you haven't detected that attitude from a large percentage of the population anyway?

Davo, not picking it apart by intention, I am just interested in the issue and everyones attitueds.

I don't think I have superior knowledge at all. ---That's inviting some sarcastic response from certain people!

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How long have you been sking at the resort in question? I have been observing the situation for 3 years and the number of people riding in the naughty zone(s) has increased to the point where they're often as tracked out as the runs.

I do question that. Yes I see trails in places that are supposed to be "off", but to compare them to activity on groomed runs is magnifying the reality to say the least.

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As for foreigners developing a bad rep - do you mean to tell me that you've been here for 8 years and you haven't detected that attitude from a large percentage of the population anyway?

Yes, sometimes I do detect that from Japanese people I don't know. But I wonder how it got that way?? Perhaps by some people coming here and just ignoring rules that are laid down however they wish? I don't know, but that certainly cannot help.

I feel that I personally have a very good reputation in the Japanese community I live in, and always do my best to iron out any strange foreigner issues / misconceptions that come up. Many of them seem almost stupid, but however stupid and nonsense they may seem, they come from somewhere. I can only do my bit to try to be different.

[SKI 15]

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Or until someone, Japanese or foreign, punches a heavy-handed patroller right in the face and breaks their nose.

Or until a heavy-handed patroller actually causes a customer an injury that requires hospitalization.

Could happen any time now...

Yeah, right.

[jared 0]

Whats the patrol gonna do? The boss says stop the people skiing in the trees - how should they do it? or what should they do? (I agree beating the offenders is not in my top 5 suggestions)

[montoya 0]

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Originally posted by danz:
montoya...
since when do ski patrollers offer bc tours/guides??? I do not know of any resort anywhere that has that service....usually it is a private guiding company that does that kind of stuff...and I'm sure you can find those for the hakuba bc as well...patrollers have other things to worry about, like their grappling and take-down skills...

Got me there; now that I think about it the guys leading the off-piste tour at Tomamu did wear different uniforms from the other patrollers, so possibly they worked for a tour company. However Tomamu heavily promotes it in all their marketing materials, as well as their website:
http://www.tomamu.co.jp/winter/03Winter/dozi3.htm
They run 3 times a day, and it seems to be fairly popular.

[Ocean11 0]

Yogurt, every time you deploy that gremlin, first ask yourself "do I got catgut"?

 

So, you reckon that patrol playing tough cops is going to end with everybody falling back in line do you? That could be what you're trying to imply with your favourite gremlin, but it's hard to tell. Personally I think the potential for greater violence is definitely there.

 

Yogurt, where do you live anyway? I can't find 'SKI' on my map...

[SKI 15]

 

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Yogurt, every time you deploy that gremlin, first ask yourself "do I got catgut"?

Oh, OK I will do that. Thanks

 

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So, you reckon that patrol playing tough cops is going to end with everybody falling back in line do you? That could be what you're trying to imply with your favourite gremlin, but it's hard to tell. Personally I think the potential for greater violence is definitely there.

Absolutely not. If you had read my posts on this issue you would know that my point is not about what the patrol are doing (that is another topic). The issue being discussed is people happily ignoring rules (because they want to and because they disagree with said rules), and justifying that.

 

I don't claim to know the best solution as to how patrol should respond to people breaking these rules. The solution is certainly not violence.

 

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Yogurt, where do you live anyway? I can't find 'SKI' on my map...

I live in Tokyo right now.

 

Cheers!

[jared 0]

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Any thick tree run that is below 30 degrees is not going to suffer from dry slides of any magnitude

please don't assume that - and it doesnt take much "magnitude" to wrap you around a tree and do some serious damage.

[Ocean11 0]

On that point jared, I'd rather see a few sign boards up around lifts explaining about avalanche safety rather than the signs telling you how to get on the lift. The liftie should be able to give you help with the former if you actually need it.

[NoFakie 45]

It's not an assumption.

 

"Freeriding in Avalanche Terrain" published by the Canadian Avalanche Association. Page 16

 

"Less than 5% of slab avalanches begin on slopes of less the 30 degrees. Avalanches that begin on slopes of less than 25 degrees usually consist of wet snow."

 

The above is talking about all slopes, heavily wind-loaded convex ones included. A slope with thick trees has numerous anchors that help prevent avalanches from starting. Like all terrain however, you've got to look at the area above as well. If the area above is dangerous, areas with terrain traps such as the trees, rocks etc. can be especially dangerous. As a general rule, you should look for damage to lower branches, broken trees etc. from previous avalanches to assess the danger. It also helps to know what a 30 degree slope is. I would imagine that many riders haven't got a clue.

 

It should go without saying, but if you want to know about avalanches, do a course. I only made the above statement to show the accepted wisdom why such terrain gets opened in other countries.

[miteyak 0]

The 'get tough' policy seems to be in response to greater numbers riding (not so subtly) off piste.

 

The fact that, after aparently being reprimanded for Barok's first incident, patrol felt at ease laying into him a second time, points to heavy-handedness being resort sanctioned.

 

Ride as you will, but know the resort. Is the resort on private or public land? What are the conditions stated for lift ticket purchase? Take a swing at someone forcibly removing you from a private resort for flouting regulations and expect to find yerself in court. Minimum force isn't it? so if you struggle, then you're just upping the stakes.

 

The issues regarding riding at a resort are in no way similar to regular rule breaking (for social change ) as resorts are mere theme parks. You want complete freedom, hike/fly/'bile into the backcountry.

 

If you want change, vote with yer yen, and boycott resorts with poor attitudes. It's their resort, they can set the rules wherever they want. You go there and break the rules, get caught, accept it and move on.

 

(deja vue?)

[SKI 15]

What are they supposed to do, ladies and gentleman, if someone who has once beenm "repremanded" continues to violate the rules? I am by no means saying that they should be violent (which they of course should not be), but what should they do?

 

Isn't it primarily the person who is contining to ignore who should be stopping his actions?

[hem now 0]

NoFakie, well put!

 

Jared, if we want to ski powder at all, there comes a point where we start having to make assumptions. These assumptions aren`t plucked from our butts, but from collective wisdom/experience/knowledge of those before us.

If the trees are fairly thick, this displays the absence of any major slide activity for about as long as the trees are old. In some places, I can imagine this to be 50 to 100 years - even longer! So while there technically is a "risk", many deem this as an acceptable level of risk to participate in something they love doing.

 

In Hakkoda, I ski runs of course all the time that I "assume" (deduct? calculate?) are safe, based on many of NoFakies points. If I wanted to be 100% sure, I`d be stuck on the groomers all day, and we all know how much that would suck! Kinda like skiing at home, really...

 

cheers,

 

hem now

[jared 0]

OK your prob right, I'm just a little skeptical right now having seen the results of one of the 5% of slab avalanches which must occouror below 30 degrees. As for the damaged tree method I'm pretty sure (assuming, lol) that most slides are much smaller than that but big enough mess you up.

I havent looked em up but calculated and deducted are much different to assumed in my books.

[Fattwins 0]

Trees avies happen but there usally is a start point that you can find.

 

Second "Ski"= Rules are not made to be broken. When the people who are making the rules, have know idea or call something an avalache area that is not one ,then yeah I have to call them on that.

 

Last there is a patroller from 47 watching this site coward who are you. I will speak no more about where I ski or how I sugjest others follow suit.

[SKI 15]

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Last there is a patroller from 47 watching this site coward who are you.

Now that is just ludicrous.

Where's that coming from then?

A patroller is watching this site > that makes him/her a coward?

How so?

Perhaps they are just reading the forums like thousands of others. What makes them reading this "a coward"?

On the one hand some people have often said on here that "hopefully resorts are reading this and learning about their customers", and now if they do read the forums "they are cowards"? Forgive me for being confused

And furthermore, how do you know this in the first place?

I'm afraid the whole thing is just becoming very silly.

[Ocean11 0]

Poor confused Yogurt.

 

There's no mystery Yogurt, just have a look through some other threads. It's hardly a surprising or implausible development...

[hem now 0]

"I havent looked em up but calculated and deducted are much different to assumed in my books"

 

Jared, that was the point I was trying to get across! That when you used the word "assume", there really is alot more behind the whole thought process than just an assumption.

 

I`m curious about this avalanche you saw - where was it? Having never seen one in the trees, I`m keen to learn. What were the snow conditions? Did trees get knocked over? Did you actually see it happen? Was it a slab or point release? Did the fracture begin from within the trees, or a bowl/cornice above?

 

I do take a few punts that treed areas are generally safe, so any info you have that would make me a wiser and safer skier would be appreciated!

 

Cheers,

 

hem now

[SKI 15]

Poor confused and angry Ocean11, more like.

[jared 0]

Ski I think the coward thing is cos they are not posting not cos they are reading. It would be nise to hear the other side of the story. I can possibly understand if they dont as Eng might be good enough to understand but not good enough to defend themselves properly - and they would have to be doing a lot of defence.