barok 0 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Well great, I am stoked, here's why http://www.snowjapan.com/e/daily/shownow.php?town=Hakuba%20Now%21 So yeah thanks Hakuba NOW person, whomever you are, sorry I cut on you earlier this year. I remember reading about the Double Black Diamond Club, and you can bet I am going to join. I was upset that Cortina wasn't doing it, when Fattwins told me that they used to. I wish 47 would do something like this. It seems like a reasonable solution - if you give the powder chasers something to do, they are less likely to break your rules. If we get our licks in, we are happy. Anyway there has obviously been alot of talk regarding patrol, off-piste, backcountry, problems, solutions. For people living here in Nagano, a program like this seems like the most reasonable and logical solution. And I plan on spreading the word as much as possible about Tsugaike to all of my friends. Some will go, some will keep getting in trouble at 47/Goryu, et al. It's just not as simple as "obey the rules" or "move to Hokkaido" for most of us. Of course you can say what you want about rule-breakers, but the fact is that more and more off-piste powder-hungry riders and skiers are going off-course. That is the reality of the situation right now. Right, wrong, your fault, my fault, it is just what is happening. My hope is that the push to ride powder in trees will sell more tickets for Tsugaike, and that this will help their sales. Because I know that there is a market for this kind of riding, and in fact, riding powder is ever increasingly the direction that snowboarding is moving. Skiiing as well, with all of these twin-tipped fat skis I see these days. Any resort that doesn't realize this will lose yen. In fact, if I want to do serious freeriding, I don't go to Hakuba anymore, I leave my season pass at home, go to Nozawa, buy a ticket, and have a blast. As far as my own riding at 47/Goryu, I HATE the courses, except if it is first tracks in the morning - on groomed or steeps. I like to ride fast, and everyday I do so on the courses late in the day, I break myself off on some snow-covered mogul or ice-patch or whatever. As I am writing this, my knee is super tweaked from falling in a weird direction, and that's the kind of thing that will stick with me for life. I generally ride the park, which I love, but that is waaay dangerous as well, I smacked my back 2 weeks ago, and it still hurts - might have bruised a vertebrate or something, but yeah I think it's ironic that patrol complain about how dangerous it is riding the off-course areas, yet I have never hurt myself riding off-course (well, I broke my finger, but whatever, that's small no hospital visit even.) but everyday riding the park or the courses is like going to battle. As for the whole conspiracy thing, maybe it was just the grapevine, cuz alot of people off the forum have been talking about 47 and the patrollers and everything, as well, but there are people who somehow got info on me that I didn't give them; and being a lowly english teacher here in Nagano city, it seems a little strange to have so many people knowing so much about me. but whatever. So if any patrollers or whatever are reading this forum, please know that I am voting with my yen, and I hope others will to. I will visit Tsugaike and I will tell all of my friends to go there as well. Link to post Share on other sites
danz 0 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 AMEN! I was also very very pleased, suprised, excited, and shocked to read about that DBD club on the NOW page...what a GREAT move in the right direction! Fattwinns, maybe you know why they canceled that program at Cortina?? I haven't been to tsugaike, but the DBD courses don't sound all that (20 degrees?? tight trees?? how do you move??),Cortina seems much more suitable for that kind of thing...but I shouldn't complain! anyway, lets hope dbd clubs spring out everywhere! danz Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 That does sound like a good idea. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 I've been writing HakubaNow this season. It's good to know people are reading it. If you want some indication of size, the DBD area at Tsugaike is similar in scale to the area under the second-top lift at Nozawa Onsen where the ropes are flagrantly ignored. On the upside, it's a couple of degrees steeper and the trees are much thicker. On the downside, there is a long flat runout to the lift. You also have to take two lifts to get back to the entrance and skate in between them. At nearly 1700m above sea level, the snow is great. I've never been in Strawberries at Niseko, but I've been down to the bottom of Hana 1 and found it surprising that an area of such repute could be off such tame courses. I'm a bit of a contour map freak(*), and while the above two areas aren't big, the maps suggest they're bigger and have more vert than Strawberries. I'll add that the more I hear about Strawberries, the more it would appear to be about the natural hits you can play on in there, rather than size or pitch. The Hana 1 runout is also long and flat. By going to the DBD, you're giving a message to the resorts that there is a demand for offpiste riding and that it can be performed safely by people who are prepared to engage the patrol and obey their rules. There are longer and steeper tree runs in Hakuba, but for whatever reason they're all out of bounds at present. (*)You can see some detailed contour maps of Japan here. Some of them are old and don't have certain lifts marked. http://mapbrowse.gsi.go.jp/mapsearch.html There's also a Japanese program called Kashmir 3D that's quite good. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 I think I saw you last year in Feb Nofakie at Cortine. Were you the guy givig the tele leason during the holiday big dump. early Feb. I would love to see the DBC everywhere. My problem is Tsugaike is to tame for my tastes. If all the resorts in Nagano are getting strict, then I think I will return to Happo. Happo has pretty much nothing closed, bar a few places. This year there signs are different too. Before they said if "you go outside the ropes we will call the police". This year they say "you will be responible for yourself". I know some areas are off limits there and I 99% of the time dont drop in there that I know. its so huge, that you dont have to go into that stupid avie area with a nasty terrain trap at the bottom. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 My limited thoughts on Strawberry Fields - it is a shortish run, not a steep average, but there are some steep sections depending on what route down you take (there are a lot). The natural hits are awesome, and the powder is epic. I had song fnatastic runs that left my back leg burning like nothing else. it made me realise just how unfit i really am! Just my limited $0.02 Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Yo Fattwins You have met me, coz I was the guy with the Ocean that time. I'm not cool enough to ride teles, but I'd like to try 'em sometime. Those turns look well funky! 1,000 yen to park on the weekend at Tsugaike is enough to put me in a bad mood all day. While Tsugaike claims its runs are rated according to FIS standards, 200m of moguls (pow if you're lucky) is all I could find there worthy of the word "difficult". DBD aside, there is little there for competent riders on the trails. In case you didn't see it, they had the Cortina patrol on morning TV today. It showed them setting off the gas gun thing with the French name (sounds like "gassex") that's under the top lift. It reputedly cost 30,000,000 yen. It showed them doing a practice beacon search and knocking down a cornice. While patrol elsewhere may have a bad rep, the guys there look like they know their stuff. The death of the Cortina DBD was resort policy I think. Blame the hotel chain, not the patrollers. Avalanche Dave who worked on the patrol at Cortina in the days of the DBD says the patrol there will give you an avalanche danger rating if you're headed off into the backcountry. Anyway, if you're heading this way, drop me a line. It would be nice for me and my wife to go out with another couple. We did one of Dave's courses the other week and have got the gear now. If I get round to it and it stops snowing, I'll try and head out into the BC with some of the locals and/or local guides in Feb. If I do, I'll stick up a report (of potentially little relevance) on HakubaNow. Snowboard_Freak Glad to hear you had a good time. My point was that at Niseko people have a good time in what is a small area with a long flat runout. It's an easy criticism to make of Tsugaike's DBD. It doesn't mean you can't have a good time in such places. As for snow, I would imagine that an altitude of 1700m in Hakuba/Nozawa is at least on a par with 500m at Niseko. I read an interview with Taro Tamai (Niseko-based BC rider and boardmaker) where he said the BC conditions on Yotei were comparable with 3000m-mountains on Honshu (Tateyama etc). FWIW, Yotei's a shade under 1900m. Link to post Share on other sites
montoya 0 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 The DBD-Club sounds fantastic, does anyone know more about it? Is it mostly run by resorts, or an wholly independent organization? Searching Google only turned up a few links so far: http://www.tokyu-hakuba.co.jp/winter/iwatake/iwadbd.htm http://www.skijapanguide.com/2002/features/backcountry-1.html For me personally (and maybe for others in the Tokyo region), does anyone know if the DBD-Club has anything going on in the Yuzawa region? If not, it may be a great opportunity to start something there. -peace Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 As I emailed you a couple of mins ago from sat to tues the wife and a friend are coming. Dont intend to hike at all as I want to try and max my time in the big mountains. Are you thinking about getting out and about around then. That same TV show, showed some Japanese boarders getting nabbed riding the avie terrain at Happo. Link to post Share on other sites
brit-gob 9 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Sounds like something to try out. Thanks for that HakubaNow and barok. Link to post Share on other sites
Will Lee 0 Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Very interesting this Double Black Diamond club is. Hmm...I wonder exactly where the entrance is. I went to Tsugaike Kogen back in the beginning of Jan and to my disappointment there was no powder, just well groomed runs and it was VERY foggy the whole day. Heck, they even groomed the very top part of the mountain(great for alpine boarders)! Not sure if I`ll get another chance to go there this season but am planning to check out Cortina International. Can someone tell me if I`ll still be able to enjoy myself if I just stay on-course? Link to post Share on other sites
enderzero 0 Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 I went to Cortina for the first time on Friday and absolutely loved it. That place is dope. You can definitely get a full day of great riding in just sticking to open terrain. We had great powder too. I love the way everything is so centralized. The place is not big, but the runs are so great you don't care. Plus it is cheap! 3300Y for a normal day pass! Does anyone know about the attached resort that you can get a ticket to for a little extra money. Is that as good? Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 This seems like a +ve step to manage what iin other resorts seems to be a problem. I took my GF to Tsugaike for beginners lessons and she really likes the wide spaces there so I suspect that I will be going back quite a bit. Dont't know about tree riding though. I am yet to actually enjoy a tree run. I think I will leave that challenge 'til next year. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 hey db, for me one of the great things about japan were the tree runs. spent a lot of time in the trees. loved it. mate a reckon if you can handle a triple black diamond in the Swiss Alps, i rekcon you could give a tree run a go!!! Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 the TBD run in the alps was tough, but only as it was steep. another I did was steep and had chutes between cliff faces, so you had to line up right with the chute or you ended up over a cliff. To be honest the first time I did it, it was an 'accident' (another story). The problem I have had with trees is that I am careful about speed, which means I get bogged in the powder. I am yet to be in trees that are well spaced, so I keep the speed down, leading to the boring ride getting bogged. I think it will take a few seasons before I am confident at speed in the trees. I suspect that trees are one area where a beginner/inexperienced rider could really do some damage. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 At Miyoko there's a place with nicely spaced out trees (to skier's right from the second highest quad) and not too steep. A few jumps in there too if you want. Nozawa has loads of tree runs of varying steepness and density. You can pretty much choose what you like and what you're safe doing. But trees do move - several have jumped out at me at the last minute, although I managed to avoid serious injury. One tackled a friend the other day too, and left him unable to walk properly. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by Ocean11: to skier's right from the second highest quad Ocean - of all people I would have expected you to have created the boarders equivalent reference of position. For example: 'Skiers right' would be 'goofy (footers) bum' and 'skiers left' would be 'goofy willy'. Thanks for the directions to some more user friendly trees. I actually want to spend a w/e with my GF in Nozawa before the season is out. Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 jeezus deebs, yer almost caught up to my tally - 32 for 35 and I live in Nagano - I am going to have to step it up. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 I try to say "riders right" but all my friends back home including riders say "skiers right". Ender lets meet up and I can show you the stuff you missed. Go to the Cortina web site and print out the discount ticket 3800 yen onsen lunch and cortina. The other resort is ok but old. 2 half pipes one you had to pay for 3 years ago. Lots of jumps. And a big cliff if you know where to look. The resort is Hakuba Norikura. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 barok - i reckon you will pull well away from me in the remainder of the season mate. Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted February 5, 2003 Author Share Posted February 5, 2003 whah, nabbed her just as she was creepin' off the bottom of page 1. please don't die little thread, you deserve to live. . . with all the talk of rule-breakin' and tree-skiin' and all that, you deserve a place right near the top, the top of my heart. um. yea, sorry. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 db You can do it mate. Have a go. Tsugaike's area isn't amazingly steep, but it's steep enough for you not to get so bogged down if you have to stop where the trees are tight. I get the impression that on the odd super-deep day when you really do have to motor, the area won't be open, at least not first thing as was the case when we went. I doubt its worth experienced tree skiers/boarders going to Tsugaike especially for the DBD, but if you don't fall into that category and/or if you're going there anyway, join and have a look. We had a laugh when we went. Anyway, here's a Japanese guy's report about it with some nice pics. http://www.moon.sphere.ne.jp/miwa/DBD/TGDBD.htm If you don't give the armband back in by four pm at the bottom of the hill, the patrol will tell you off. Be warned! Link to post Share on other sites
montoya 0 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Still a bit hazy about the DBD Club. Is it something run and controlled by Tsugaike, or an independent organization that happens to be cooperating with this particular resort this season? Also, re-reading the old Ski Japan Guide article on the Hakuba Cortina DBD Club, it mentioned there were eventually 1400 members, which is nothing to sneeze at. Anyone know if meetings are held anywhere, and if there's any on-line contact info? Getting really off-tangent here, just seems like this might also appeal to the graying population in Japan. You see tons of people in their 50's-70's hiking and backpacking in the mountains during spring/summer/fall. Lots of them used to be on the slopes. Back-country access might be a way to draw them back into the winter snow. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 What do they do at Tsugaike if you don't join the club and ride that area anyway? It looks nice from the pics... Link to post Share on other sites
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