Alternative medicines and treatments

[Go Native 70]

I know a lot of people on these forums use or are even practitioners of alternative medicines and treatments and it got me wondering why in the 21st century such things have if anything become more popular.

 

First up I have scientific background and a very incredulous mind and because of this I am ever the sceptic. It doesn't mean I have a closed mind it just means I'm not prepared to accept anything and everything people claim (especially when it's big money business).

I'm certainly not going to claim that all alternative medicines and treatments have no merit whatsoever but I have done quite a bit of research into them over the years and I do find most somewhat questionable.

 

My main concerns are the lack of clinical trials to back up claims of efficacy and the lack of quality control and qualifications required to administer these medicines and treatments.

 

For instance most clinical trials on acupuncture I've read show limited, if any effect other than a placebo effect. Many trials have been done where they use real acupuncture on one group and a sham acupuncture (not using correct points) on another group. Of course the sham group doesn't know they're not getting the real thing. Most results show little difference in outcomes between the real and sham groups, I've actually seen numerous trials where the sham group has better results. People can practice acupuncture with little more than a diploma they can complete over the internet!

 

Very similar results are found with many Eastern 'remedies'. I know you all can probably find a million websites on the internet of how effective these medicines and treatments actually are but I've found very few trials published in credible medical journals that show effective results. Eastern medicines are also very problematic because there are no real controls on quality. In fact a lot studies into the components of many remedies on the market have found little, if any of the components claimed to be in the medicine are actually there (surprise, surprise many are made in China!). Or if they do contain what they actually claim to then there is little control over the percentages of each component. You also have people dispensing these remedies who have little, if any formal education, possible only a diploma they've bought off the internet. Also many of these remedies claim to cure all sorts of ills, some even claim to cure cancer, though few of them have the credibility of controlled clinical trials to back up their claims.

 

So even with all the lack of credible evidence out there these alternatives are still becoming ever more popular. As a sceptic this concerns me on two fronts. One that people are so willing to just accept such appalling lack of controls, credentials and results, or are happy to remain blissfully unaware of them. And two, to me this is just another indication of the dumbing down of society. People turning their back on science and knowledge for faith and mysticism.

[js 0]

Our family GP is Thai - a retired surgeon with a lot of quals. He's done minor surgery on me several times. He also does acupuncture and other such stuff. So I believe there is some truth in alternative medicines. Remember, medical treatment is wholistic - the use of several branches may assist where one alone will fail.

Although I've never had it done, some friends who are into advanced martial arts do the modern version of acupuncture - with battery operated electrodes attached to the needles. This treatment seems to work i.e. repairing minor ailments.

[Go Native 70]

I have no doubt that all those who regularly use alternative treatments and medicines will have their own personal stories of how it's helped them and I also don't doubt that in many cases it actually has. For instance with acupuncture although it doesn't really seem to matter where you stick the needles if people believe it's doing them good then there is often a placebo effect and it actually does do them some good. At the end of the day most of these treatments and medicines can produce placebo effects in a percentage of those who use them and even if they don't overly help much they also don't generally do much harm.

My main concerns are the 'snake oil salesmen' out there who pray upon the desperate with all kinds of claims of what their little potions can cure with absolutely no clinical trials whatsoever to back their claims. To be honest the whole industry seems a bit that way to me. It's big, big money and their remedies and treatments for some reason do not seem to have to pass any of the rigorous tests and trials that mainstream drugs have to.

[js 0]

I agree, though the results gathered from many multinational drug companies are also suspect - the real outcome usually eventuates after several years of a drug being tested in 'the wild'.

 

Remember, there are failures with modern pills and potions too. Some affect individuals adversely.

 

If it makes you feel good, then it's probably working - that seems to be the philosophy of all branches of medicine.

 

It seems the only pill that is universally beneficial is Aspirin!

[HelperElfMissy 42]

I have a real big problem with the 'snake oil salesman' types - especially those who totally reject modern medicine.

 

I have read a few accounts that really made me sick - a diabetic child who died because the family natural therapist told them to stop all medical treatments for the 'cure' to work... a woman who had treatable skin cancer who wasted years using natural remedies under the guidance of her natural therapist only to have the cancer advance and become terminal. Same goes for 'faith' healing and exorcism.

 

These things are good, but we need to be holistic and realistic. For Example: Sometimes insulin is necessary - and diet alone doesn't cut it...but changing the diet to make a difference while continuing to take insulin sounds like a very sensible approach...and if the amount of insulin reduces as a result of alternative therapies and is eventually stopped - well great.

 

People just have to be sensible.

[Go Native 70]

As I said MB I have no doubt that some of the treatments and medicines may actually work for some things. Whether they work better than western treatments and medicines will depend on the person. My main concern is the lack of any controls over this industry in terms of quality, ability to substantiate their claims with evidence, and qualifications of the practitioners. Currently there's very few controls on any of these things which opens up the whole industry to the 'snake oil salesman' types out there. And as you point out with regards to serious illnesses these treatments and medicines can be just outright dangerous.

I don't want to keep singling out acupuncture but check what are the main things that they claim it can help with? Things like weight loss, anxiety, kicking smoking and relief of chronic pain. Funnily enough very similar to the main things people use hypnotism for. No real coincidence though is it as these things are such great money spinners!

[HelperElfMissy 42]

And acupuncture didn't help me quit smoking, even though my private health insurance covered it! I managed that with cold turkey, will power and determination five years AFTER the acupuncture.

 

Things that might be beneficial and yet 'do no harm' I think are great - but what scares me is the things that can actually hurt people. Formulation's that are actually toxic. Quality controls are important I think - and some level of regulation.

[Chriselle 158]

Boy GN....talk about a topic... I'll jump in I guess.

 

As I mentioned to Mamabear in her headache thread, I am in the business.....no, not acupuncture.

I too, for what it's worth, come from a scientific perspective but really that has nothing to do with this other than to skew your view from the get go.

I agree there are SO MANY snake oil products out there and all of that junk really makes it difficult to find the products that actually have some benefit. The industry is growing too fast for quality control and regulation to keep up save a few countries like Canada and Japan where certification is required before products can be marketed. I only promote products that are certified and that have an established and good standing history.

As for Big Pharma. I am extremely wary of most modern medicines. Perhaps more so than traditional remedies which for the most part end up doing nothing that they claim. Yes, modern medicines have the apparent safety of clinical trials, extensive research and certification but if you really dig it's easy to see that it's all just business.

Those commercials you see on North American TV these days should be an indication. The list of "possible" adverse effects is comical in a not so funny way. The majority of consultations between patients and doctors seem to go something like this.."Here we can help you with your heart disease, but you'll probably need a new liver in 5 years". Don't be fooled by the lab coats people.

 

I think mamabear is right on. It all comes down to being sensible.

[Go Native 70]

I don't disagree with the sentiments regarding western drug companies, they are hardly saints and like most major corporations are driven by profit. Doctors too get caught up in this and often prescribe drugs that they get the best kickbacks from rather than what is neccesarily the best for the patient. The thing is we are all very much aware of such things. I don't see the same level of scrutiny, sceptisism and distrust of alternatives though.

And even if these alternatives are ultimately fairly benign it's still very wrong, in my book, to make claims of efficacy when there is little or no reliable evidence to back up the claims. At least western drug guys have to tell you hey we can help with your heart disease but it may stuff up your liver. There are rules for open disclosure. Few such controls on the alternatives.

[JA2340 16]

So, Chriselle, you are OK with locking bears up in tiny cages and draining their bile ducts every day or so, just so the "traditional" medicine people can keep using this in their preparations?

 

And what of the need for total care of the patient? Does every "alternative" medic do a complete assessment of each patient, and then prescribe a SPECIFIC product for that SPECIFIC patient? or do they use a recipe that was handed down through many generations? If the latter, what is the chance that the dosage will be just right for t hat specific person, and not kill them through overdosing?

[Chriselle 158]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

I don't disagree with the sentiments regarding western drug companies, they are hardly saints and like most major corporations are driven by profit. Doctors too get caught up in this and often prescribe drugs that they get the best kickbacks from rather than what is neccesarily the best for the patient. The thing is we are all very much aware of such things. I don't see the same level of scrutiny, sceptisism and distrust of alternatives though.
And even if these alternatives are ultimately fairly benign it's still very wrong, in my book, to make claims of efficacy when there is little or no reliable evidence to back up the claims. At least western drug guys have to tell you hey we can help with your heart disease but it may stuff up your liver. There are rules for open disclosure. Few such controls on the alternatives.

Agreed. Those controls are coming and already somewhat established in several countries including Japan. I can't wait because it means a lot of the "ayashi" crap will float to the surface and be skimmed off. As it is now we are seeing A LOT of iffy companies closing up shop in Canada and running south so they can continue peddling their swill because they can't meet the higher standards. My only concern is with regards to who or what body makes the regulations.

[Chriselle 158]

Originally Posted By: JA

So, Chriselle, you are OK with locking bears up in tiny cages and draining their bile ducts every day or so, just so the "traditional" medicine people can keep using this in their preparations?

And what of the need for total care of the patient? Does every "alternative" medic do a complete assessment of each patient, and then prescribe a SPECIFIC product for that SPECIFIC patient? or do they use a recipe that was handed down through many generations? If the latter, what is the chance that the dosage will be just right for t hat specific person, and not kill them through overdosing?

WO..WO..WO.. The only bears I'm ok with are the ones that are going about their daily business out in the bush like they were intended.
I'm NOT into those kinds of "traditional" BS products. We only promote certified plant based (dare I say Herbal) products. They are in fact finely tuned long standing formulations and each one has specific ingredients to help with specific problems.
Dosage? We don't even use that term, nor are we allowed by law. I can't speak for all the other stuff out there but with the products we promote..overdosing would be akin to trying to OD on vitamin C. We have a recommended amount to start with and a target volume but beyond that there's no benefit.

I don't want my posts to sound like a promo...I just want to explain my experience.

[sunrise 0]

Kampo has had studies done and is accepted by the Japanese medical profession, Japanese hospitals give it to people recovering from cancer treatments.

 

Just a random google on kampo and scientific studies... much more out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampo

[Go Native 70]

Actually there doesn't appear to be many results at all from clinical trials that have been published in credible medical journals. Trials are still being run though and it will be interesting to see the results. Of course the studies are being conducted with funding by the main supplier of the drug so it'll be interesting to see if the results get into a medical journal after the peer review process.

Lets be clear though that just because something has been used for a long time and is accepted in the culture and by the government doesn't always prove it works. Nothing in the wiki article convinced me one way or the other that Kampo is effective. Western doctors it seems are interested in using it for those that have adverse reactions to the western drugs. Better than nothing I guess? It should be noted that it seems in Japan Kampo is used mostly as a complimentary treatment along with normal western treatment. This makes it a little difficult to distinguish which treatment is actually the effective one.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

This is a huge factor I would imagine GN - the drug companies have the money to run lots of efficacy trials and publish their work, therefore support the sale of their product ... whereas the huge profits are not really there for natural remedies (especially when we are talking things like stop eating dairy, preservative laden foods, red meat and oh yeah if you wish .. by the way... a capsule of Milk Thistle may also be of benefit). Not as much profit in that as there is the massive mark up on Viagra.

 

One thing I have noticed is that many of the highly qualified doctors have become so specialized and focused that they fail to see and treat the whole person. Please don't take that the wrong way - their skills are needed - they are outstanding. But the patient then needs to take back the responsibility for looking at themselves holistically. I have come across one doctor so far (in my search for holistic practitioners) who is both a GP of the traditional variety and a noted naturopath. I am keen to get an appointment with him and see what the go is!! One imagines he would have a good balance of using modern medicine and techniques combine with natural remedies and supports.

[Go Native 70]

One of the things with the internet MB is that anyone can publish anything and try and pass it off as science. And for the lay person out there it can be very difficult to tell what is good and bad science. This is why I come back to things like being published in credible journals. These journals, especially medical ones, usually have long standing reputations to uphold and normally have a fairly rigorous review process before publishing a study. They ensure that good science has been adhered to rather than just fudging results to make the company that funded the study happy.

 

As I said earlier I'm sure any of us can search and find a multitude of studies to support the efficacy of just about any treatment or remedy out there (however whacky they may seem). You really have to be careful about trusting them though.

 

And I don't know about you but I get about 5 emails a day offering some incredible deals on Viagra!

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Very true GN.

 

I just think the motivation is higher for the drug companies to push their research.

 

I also wonder if a 'medical' journal is really all that interested in the antibiotic properties of a good old honey and lemon drink for a sore throat - no matter how effective.

 

Not sure the playing field is level.

And not really sure if it should be...

 

 

[edited to add ... well you really should stop buying it then! ]

[RobBright 35]

Think most medical journals would publish the result, if there was scientific backing behind it. There has been plenty of research into the medicinal benefits of honey. Think one researcher published its benefits in treating MRSA.