Education-What's it really worth?

[Jynxx 4]

If you got the money,

wouldn't it be funny, a ha ha...

[Mantas 3]

Mama- We have this discussion all the time with our friends- Which school to send our kids to. Some of them have kids in private education, some are even teachers in both systems.

I've spent a lot of time working in Public schools, while not directly involved in the education process, I still get a good handle of what's going on.

My wife went through a very posh private school in England so I know all about what goes on there too.

Our local state school does very well each year with the HSC rankings. A long long way down the list comes our 2 or 3 private schools. So the reason to send your kid to a private school to get a better education just doesn't hold up. A better experience perhaps (can't remember going snowboarding in NZ in my state school days).

I haven't ruled out sending my kids to the private school. It's definitely a more nurturing environment, and the public school certainly does have some undesirable kids disrupting the education process.

The fact is, kids may be able to avoid those undesirable ones for the short few schooling years of their life but those undesirable kids often turn into undesirable adults. Those undesirable adults may even one day marry your son or daughter, they will be part of the same world that your kid will live in.

 

The exclusive education experience isn't really what I'm after for my kids.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

And you are not alone Mantas.

 

In our case our public school sucked, it had a great reputation, but the famed principal left the year before our eldest started and it descended rapidly - there was a mass exodus of students around the time we left and after - some to other public schools (which meant moving house) and others into the private system (many and varied levels).

 

As far as education goes - the school my kids attend has been in the top 10 in the state for as long as I can remember ...and THE top boys school (only beaten in the tables by private girls schools) ever since my children have been there (to the best of my recollection). So in our case that argument does indeed hold up. The fabulous experience my boy got out of his one short session of PEAC each week at public school was all of a sudden available all week long in his classroom in the private school.

 

But if you are on a winner with your public school then stick to it - I never would have made the move and landed myself with the huge school fee's if there was no signifigant advantage for my children. And I have heard plenty of people complain of thier private schools as well - so just by the mere private/public thing you can not guarentee it will be good/bad.

 

But as a paying customer the school tends to listen to the parents a bit more, and they cater to what you want - rather than treating you as an annoyance.

[NoFakie 45]

Unfortunately the way it seems to work now in many urban areas is that being in the catchment area for a decent public-run school feeds directly into house prices. In some cases you can see it in the prices of two otherwise identical houses just a street or two apart.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Very true Mr Wiggles.

Which is why some of us just go to the private system and live where we choose.

 

I do feel for people without choice in the matter.

[gerard 6]

Getting a decent education for your children (I'm talking about school here)seems like a basic right to me. There's something seriously wrong if only rich people can afford to do so.

[RobBright 35]

Originally Posted By: ger

Getting a decent education for your children (I'm talking about school here)seems like a basic right to me. There's something seriously wrong if only rich people can afford to do so.

This.

In reality there shouldn't be a need for state or private schools - but saying that, going to a private school, DOESN'T guarantee a good education. A couple of my friends went to private schools, and are no more cleverer than the average Japanese.

Personally, education shouldn't be run for profitl ike private schools are, but I guess the divide is going to happen regardless as with the haves vs have nots. When I have children, they are going to a state school. Never did my sisters and I any harm.

[Mantas 3]

Originally Posted By: ger

Getting a decent education for your children (I'm talking about school here)seems like a basic right to me. There's something seriously wrong if only rich people can afford to do so.

Depends on your definition of 'decent education'. Our state schools are providing all the facilities and resources needed for a decent education it's just that learning is optional on the students part. Parents need to take some responsibility here.
I believe teachers are doing the best they can working under the structure that they are given.

Some of these kids just need a good ol fashion flogging.

[Go Native 70]

Originally Posted By: Mantas

Some of these kids just need a good ol fashion flogging.

Or their parents do...

[bobby12 0]

In a western country I think a private school is there mainly just to keep your kids away from the riff raff, in other words to pamper to the peoples racist/classist tendencies. I dont think education quality is much better - exam grades tend to be better but I think that may be a genetics thing because the families that can afford private school are probably reasonably intelligent and stable.

 

Unfortunately the problem I have is more severe because I am trying to raise my kids in Japan. If you want them to get an English environment, it is impossible unless you use international school. This is no-ones fault, but it may mean that we have to relocate or accept them to grow up speaking kansai-ben as their first langauge.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Bobby12 you might have a point about there being a componant of other factors involved in the consistently higher grades of some private schools. Parents that are both doctors or lawyers are often more likely to get decent grades in school by right of genetics. Also people like ourselves make the big move into the system because our children are bright and were not getting the extension they needed. But there are plenty of kids at our particular school who are queueing up on the waiting list to get into the special ed unit - because it is SO good.

 

All depends on the school itself doesnt it.

My boys were always learning things at home, and when they were in state school I found I spent an inordinate amount of time stimulating thier brains because they were bored to death at school. But now things are as they should be. teacher teaches them, I follow up with homework and round table discussions - all good!

 

Hubby and I were both state school educated.

[NoFakie 45]

Originally Posted By: ger

Getting a decent education for your children (I'm talking about school here)seems like a basic right to me. There's something seriously wrong if only rich people can afford to do so.

Yes you're right, but that's the way it works in some places in some countries. Pay for something you know is unfair or send your kids in with the neds/charvas/hoi polloi and hope for the best, it's a real Hobson's Choice for parents.

Some child psychologists seem to think that the die is pretty much cast by five or six years old, and that you're really up against it with problem kids after that. Possibly the best thing that could happen for state schools is not more money for teachers or equipment but structured preschool childcare for everyone beforehand. Not necessarily lessons or reading, but getting the kids together and interacting in a monitored situation. It seems to be what the more enlightened European countries do, at least. I can't see it happening though from the "why should my taxes pay to raise other people's kids - they'll only have more" type short-sighted envy you get in Anglo countries post Reagan/Thatcher. Money spent on preschool seems to save a fortune later in lower crime and deliquency rates. Not doing it may just be shooting yourself in the foot.

The other interesting studies are the ones that show huge improvements in the kids at reform schools when they were fed food with a proper nutritional value. I think that one might have come up in that Super Size Me film. Again it seems that saving pathetic amounts of money on school dinners can have huge social ramifications.

[bobby12 0]

I think in the UK now they do get decent school dinners since Jamie Oliver did his documentary series on it about 4/5 years ago.

 

For sure, when we take our kids to KFC or soemthing they get really hyper and moody afterwards. But I dont agree with going too far the other way either, you get these families feeding their kids zero-fat zero-sugar all the time: raw carrots and plain rice which just seems like total overkill.

[thursday 1]

there has been follow up programs about Jamie's school dinners.

 

As soon as the cameras left, they went on to using the cheaper ingredients and the quality suffered. Kids went back to crisps and coke I think.

[thursday 1]

My kid is 2. He already has his school plans mapped by his mum. Poor kid.

[Mantas 3]

Yes it's kind of sad. I'm remember the day that my first went off to school.

I remember thinking at the time. Here is a little free thinking person, influenced only by her loving parents off to the 'factory' to be programmed into a good functional member of society and the work force.

 

it's just the way it is.

[Go Native 70]

Mr Wiggles makes an excellent point about early education and how this can set you up for the rest of your education. It always amazed me in Aus that the lowest paid educators were the ones teaching the youngest children. Shortsighted and stupid.

[JA2340 16]

Mama,

Whilst I cannot, obviously, comment on the particular teachers yopur jkids had, I would categorically deny that there are many differences between state school teachers and their private school cousins.

 

I have been both, so there was absolutely NO difference between me as the public school teacher and me as the private school teacher.

 

Teachers in the private sector are somehow seen as superior, beats me why. They attend the same teacher training places, have the same human foibles (just check out the recent spate of sex abuse claims against private school teachers in NSW) and so on. They are paid on around the same scale, they prepare students for the same exams, and they do not do much better at it, if the HSC league tables are to be believed.

 

ALL of the things you mentioned (co-curricular - often referred to as extra-curricular as it has little bearing on the curriculum) are not available to all students in all private schools. Each school has to set their own priorities, and work out what the parents can afford.

 

I get very angry with sweeping "private is better" statements because it SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE! There is NO empirical evidence to support the advantages claimed by many private schools. The only thing they have going for them is huge fees and large government grants to continue to build huge edifices with little educational benefit (swimming pool complexes and rugger grounds spring to mind).

 

On a slightly different note, but related, there is a wide difference between private (aka the GPS schools) and private (aka the regional Catholic schools) and private (aka the Independent/Christian/etc schools).

 

/rant off/

[Mantas 3]

So why do you think people send their kids to private schools JA?

[gerard 6]

Originally Posted By: Mantas

Yes it's kind of sad. I'm remember the day that my first went off to school.
I remember thinking at the time. Here is a little free thinking person, influenced only by her loving parents off to the 'factory' to be programmed into a good functional member of society and the work force.

it's just the way it is.

Or you could opt for 'homeschooling'.

[Mantas 3]

Nah, just being sentimental. My kids get a lot more out of school than just maths and grammar. They are in the school choir, jump rope team, drama club, cross country running team........

[gerard 6]

.... Yeah, if you ask me homeschooling is completely insane but it seems like it's somewhat popular these days.

[Mantas 3]

ah yes, I know the type. 'The Super Parent'

I'm one of those evil slacker parenst that actually admits to enjoying my time away from the kids.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

I considered home schooling. Then realised the death of my children was not worth it - LOL (Joking of course).

My SIL homeschools her kids - she is a teacher. But even so I am concerned that they miss out on the social stuff that comes with school.

 

JA,

I agree with you about making sweeping judgements about private verses public - and also that there are different kinds of private! But in our case there is just no comparison. The teachers at our private school on the whole are the shining lights of thier profession - they ARE paid more, and so the positions are very desirable.

 

The government funding debate is an interesting one. Public education money is distributed on a per head basis to school across the board - private or public. It is a small amount. Public schools receive more funding on top of this basic per child allocation. OUr school gets the basic bit and that is it - everything else is paid for through school fee's and fundraising. We are constantly fundraising for the school to do more - build more and provide more. If a private school is 'rolling in cash' (none of them are, but if it appears they are) then it is because if the hard work of those parents to raise it.

 

I KNOW there are good teachers in the public system - some of my very good friends teach in the state system here in Perth - and they ALL - without exception - complain of the lack of support within the schools for being passionate and innovative. It is like a light has gone off. I find that awfully sad - because it is exactly those teachers that can make a difference in a childs life.

[JA2340 16]

Originally Posted By: Mantas

So why do you think people send their kids to private schools JA?

From my perspective as a non-Catholic teaching in the Catholic system, I saw two reasons for the kids being sent to the regional Catholic school.

1. Because that is "the done thing" for Catholic parents.
2. Because of a perception of a better standard of teaching.

Reason #1 is very difficult to argue against (or for, for that matter) because it depends on the depth of your religious conviction.

Reason #2 saw me teaching several non-Catholics and they were expected to follow the system (ie go to mass and study "Religious Education" as a compulsory subject for the HSC). Their parents, almost invariably, saw a difference in the tradition and discipline in the school.

Whether there was an ACTUAL difference in these matters, is not for me to judge. I could perceive a great difference in discipline, but that may have been the change from a comprehensive (7 - 12) school to a senior high school (years 11 & 12 only).

In general, I believe that the "GPS" schools trade on their "old boy's/girls" network, convincing parents that this alone will ensure success for their offspring. Whether that happens or not, it is certainly a selling point. They also tend to emphasise the actual numbers (rather than the percentages) of students who achieve high academic results in the HSC examination. (For a school that selects students on the basis of academic potential, to gain only 30% of final year students with UAI - University Admission Index - ranks of 90+ would be rather deflating, explaining why they do not mention the "failures").
Mind you, that comment also applies to Public Schools (State Schools) that select students for specific traits (often academic "excellence") and fail to produce high percentages of students in the 90+ UAI range.