Looking for a new snow/wallet-friendly vehicle...ideas?

[Fattwins 0]

I drove a jimmy for years and it never tipped over once.

Good traction but bad on the highway (gas). Like any car it

has good points and bad points. If you want to save on gas

look for a fit 4wd used.

[me jane 0]

Soubs what are live axles?

[thursday 1]

Jane, read this Axels for dummies

[thursday 1]

I see plenty bad points with this thing:

 

[Ezorisu 0]

Originally Posted By: chairmanoftheboard

Just checking in, wow, thanks for all the input folks. Actually surprised this hasn't been discussed more here. Still looking around, checking out a few more options > hadn't realised there are also 1300 Jimnys too, also the Pajero Mini looks pretty slick. Will check out the Fit etc for sure too, cheers again.

Between the Mits Pajero Mini and the Jimny, go for the Jimny - way better engineering and reliability.

If you are interested in the Fit, also check a Toyota Vitz or ist AWD, or a Nissan March (kinda' ugly though).

[Ezorisu 0]

Originally Posted By: thursday.

I see plenty bad points with this thing

What are you saying, Man! It's a wonderful vehicle for the size and price! It's one of the few vehicles in the size/price range that it actually built like a truck. I've been on some nasty dirt tracks in my Land Cruiser and passed broken Hiluxes, modified Jeeps stuck in mud or high-centered on rocks, only to find a dude in a bone-stock Jimny at the end of the trail!

The live axles are the best for off-road, as is the highly articulated coil-spring multi-link suspension.

[Fattwins 0]

The jimmy was made for the narrow mountain roads and they almost never get stuck. Because they are light you can self rescue many times. Yes they are tippy but only if you drive like an idiot. the car cant corner like a race car.

[JA2340 16]

Not many can, FT! Especially with a high Centre of gravity, like most 4WD and People movers have!

[soubriquet 0]

Jimnys are truly ace in seriously offroad conditions. Properly driven, they will piss on a Landcruiser or Patrol. That is due to light weight and small dimensions. The narrow track stuffs them on steep traverses, where a LandRover or HiLux will still be stable. The MB G-Wagon beats them all because all 3 diffs can be locked.

 

 

If I read it right, the original question is: "which vehicle would you want to drive safely and economically from Tokyo to Nagano on a snowy Friday night"? My choice would be something directionally stable (the Jimny is not, see live axles) and roll-stable (the Jimny is not).

 

I'm not criticising the Jimny. It is very good at what it is designed for. Shopping trolley for the supermarket and mountain tracks. It is not designed for long weekend winter commutes and not stable at speed. I'll take a medium sized AWD wagon with snow tyres, thank you very much.

[soubriquet 0]

I know something about off-road. 1986. PHd studies in the Atlas mountains, Morocco. That's me under the bonnet checking fluids after a cold night in the desert.

 

 

Shite photo. The original was a slide. This is a scan of a B&W photo of the slide. Seriously hungry goats in a serious desert (Anti-Atlas). Break down or get stuck here, and prepare to die.

 

 

My alltime favourite 4WD. GQ Nissan Patrol. This is in the Pilbara, NW WA. This is the vehicle I would trust my life to, but they weigh nearly 1 1/2 tonnes, and are absolute bstards to dig out of a creek bed.

 

 

 

Staking 2-3 tyres per day. Scrapping a full set of tyres and tubes per week. This is the ultimate offroad vehicle.

 

 

Sorry, the Jimny doesn't do it for me.

[soubriquet 0]

Originally Posted By: me jane

Soubs what are live axles?

Dealing with cars (and trucks and 4WDs) there are two different types of suspension. Independent suspension where the wheels across the vehicle are not directly connected, and beam axles where they are.

Beam axles were invented with the first wagon or chariot. The Romans would have recognised this as old technology. A beam with a wheel at each end. An 18th Century enhancement of the beam axle was to invent the cart (leaf) spring.

Here's a bullshit diagram of beam axle with cart (leaf) springs. The labelling is wrong.



This is in fact a live axle, not a dead axle. Live axles were invented in the 1890s when Carl Benz stuck a motor into a horseless carriage in order to drive rather than pull the thing. The central bit labelled "drive axle" is a differential, but that doesn't matter for the purpose of this post.

Beam axles are strong, heavy, cheap and crude (pre-Roman technology). By the early 1920s, Lancia, the Artistes of car manufacturing, had recognised the limitations of beam axles, and introduced independent suspension. It took Nazi Germany and GM anther 15 years to recognise what was staring blind Freddie in the face.

As stated above, beam axles are cheap, simple and strong. They are ideal if you want to stick 500kg of melons in your 350kg truck and stroll them from the field to the Co-op. Everywhere else they fail.

The principle failure is that any disturbance to one wheel (a bump) upsets the other, causing the axle to loose grip. That is, driving over a bump will cause one end of your car to let go. Cart springs (think Suzuki, Daihatsu) are required to locate and suspend the axle. Take a curve, straighten it and see the change in length. Now take this variable and trust it to support your and you're children's life. Every time your beam axled Jimny passes over a bump, the axle is losing grip, and the uncontrolled geometry is steering your vehicle.

So what? I don't drive like Stirling Moss, and always try to leave plenty of grip and control in reserve. Two seasons ago, I followed a bog Mazda live-axled rep wagon up a snowy mountain road. I was driving slowly with heaps in reserve. He was holding me up, with the live-axled back end stepping out and sliding around every corner and over every bump. He was right on the limit, while I was bored with the hold up. Live axles have their place in trucks and tractors. Roman technology doesn't rate on my dynamic safety scale

[soubriquet 0]

Here is a totally crude diagram of a live axle on leaf springs. I much prefer a whiteboard, but here we go.

 

 

Here is a crude drawing of what happens when a leaf-sprung live axle flattens over a bump.

 

 

The spring is directly attached to one end of the chassis, and variably mounted to the other end. The axle moves up and back (or forward). The total length of the spring doesn't change, it simply re-locates the position of the axle and steers the car. The result, is that driving one wheel over a bump in a straight line will cause the car to deviate. Try this at 110kph, and wonder why why your car twitches, and deviates. Wonder why in the 5 hour trip from Tokyo to Nagano, you you are fully concentrated on keeping your Jimny on the Expressway while the properly made cars are sweeping past you in comfort. Wonder why shit will out.

[tsondaboy 0]

interesting read soubs.

[thursday 1]

just fit a limited slip diff. That'll cure it, hopefully.

 

But don't give me unsafe shit. I need 11 airbags, a roll cage, ABS, TCS, ESP, Pre-tensioners, EBD, HID and auto pilot for landing.

[soubriquet 0]

Sorry If I'm obscure or technical. Not trying to be difficult. When I grew up, some cars (all German, I'll post the pics tomorrow) where shit. Live axles, leaf springs and swing axles would kill you and your family if you made a mistake. The Jimny is a hangover from this period.

 

Volkswagons were and are air cooled. The car heater is a collector of hot air about the exhaust system. Any exhaust leak pumps carbon monoxide into the cabin. An independent may think that mobile gas chambers (poisoning people with gas) would be a sensitive issue for Germans. Germany is still making money selling swing axled gas chambers in Mexico.

[snowdude 44]

Well I drive a suzuki Escudo 4wd 2000cc and got nothing but praise for it.

I bought it nearly new with only 8k on it now done close to 80k's and never put a spanner to it, just regular oil/ filter change and servicing.

Every winter I drive through snow off road and on road and just about everywhere, with the winter tyres and 4wd mode it is good for 30+cm deep snow.

Problem is it is a bit thirsty especially around town or if you use 4wd, but not too bad if you use it on 2wd crusing on a motorway.

It is built to last I was told, even if you rolled it you could still drive it home ok.

Although the escudor will do 180 on a motorway if you really push it, it is no performance car beater, and you will find it is not easy to really whiz it round mountain roads very quickly due to its hight and short wheel base.

If you want a car for burning round corners forget about escudor or jimny, but if you want a car for going off road or plowing through quite deep snow then I don't think you will get better especially for the price.

Only thing is of course the escudor does like drinking petrol due to its weight.

Also on the suzuki escudor and I think jimney too all four wheels drive together, where by some 4wd's have split dif, which is no good as it allows the wheels to turn independantly, meaning you will soon get stuck.

 

Another point to note is ground clearance, why my car is good in deep snow is because of high ground clearance.

Some standard family saloons with 4wd will soon bottom out in even fairly shallow snow due to lack of ground clearance, what happens as you are moving forward the snow is gradually compacting under the car, if you don't have a lot of ground clearance before long it will lift the car and you end up with 4 wheels floating in the snow which = Stuck!

 

 

 

Ok just my 2 cents

 

 

[soubriquet 0]

Your Suzuki Escudo won't have a narrow track, live axles and leaf springs. The Jimny will.

 

Suzuki are a fine engineering company. They sell good machines, and make a profit selling basic stuff to those who don't care. Suzuki have an ace business model.

[soubriquet 0]

And as you choose to challenge me, my personal experience of a Suzuki Eskudo was it was totally buggered. A couple of Poms had hired one and attempted to take it through a water crossing in Bridgetown WA. It got no-where. Neither in nor out, and I gave a lift in my Alfa Romeo Guilietta to the crestfallen to Bridgetown for a tow out.

 

I don't have a problem with Suzuki. My GS850 was a thrill. I loved winding it out to 10,000 revs. Jimnys are for shopping and forest tracks. Unfortunately, the defensives here seem to believe that cart sprung live axled short wheelbase narrow tracked 4wd Drives are the ultimate motoring technology.

 

I am, yet again, in the thrall of the willfully ignorant. A minority of one. I need to go back to uni and get a humanities degree. Then I can parade my stupidity as a badge of rank.

[soubriquet 0]

Don't challenge me.

 

Here's me on my Suzuki GS 850.

 

[soubriquet 0]

I have great respect for Suzuki, and their business model. Suzuki's business model doesn't fit my life, but I respect that. Their products don't fit my life but that's no a criticism, but an opinion.

[soubriquet 0]

I'm itching to ride a big four again. I've a mate in Cambridge wanting to sell me his Honda inline six. Can't wait to get my hands on that bike. It's going to handle like a bstqrd but going to go in a straight line as a dream. Wanking.

[soubriquet 0]

In the mid-1930s, Mr Hitler came up with a cunning plan to build a people's car. The trick was to employ Ferdinand Porsche. Porsche made things quick and cheap because he had been the draughtsman for the Czeck genius Heinz Ledwinka at Skoda. Porker had the drawings for a rear engined air cooled platform chassis car with front trailing arms and rear swing axles. He never came up with a better idea than Ledwinka.

 

Porker was a clever chap. He got Mr Hitler to murder 5 million Jews and 30 million Russians. That solved the intellectual property problem, and after a little post WWII trouble, he went on to get rich selling Ledwinka's ideas as his own.

 

Until the late 1960s, the Meister Race continued to market Porker's theft as their own. Here are photos of Benz's finest, a 1960s S Class. The rear suspension isn't broken as the memsahib thought. It's on full bump, and the rear tyres are on their inside edges. On full droop, they will be on their outside edges, and in between the contact patch will migrating across the tyre. Just think, in a straight line the back end of this Cherman Meisterpiece will be steering itself from side to side across the road, all due to Porkers theft.

 

Here's the dog.

 

Chermany's finest copy of a mongrel.

 

No it's not broken. The Meister Race's copy of one of Ledwinka's poorer ideas. A highly polished turd.

 

 

[soubriquet 0]

The best cars I've driven, in order are: Lancia Beta Coupe, Lancia Fulvia, FIAT 128 Coupe, AlfaSud, Alfa GTV, Subaru Legacy/Liberty, Mini. All of these were designed by Italians.

 

The worst dogs I've driven in order are: VW Beetle, Ford Galaxie, Holden HQ, BMW 329. Avoiding racist shit, no-one Italian here, and no-one with a clue how to balance the clutch, brake and throttle pedals. Chermans, don't apply for the job.

[soubriquet 0]

Sorry to continue the digression Me Jane, but you drive a Stagea. A wagon body over one of the most sophisticated (Nissan GTR) chassis ever produced. I'd love to fully test your chassis, but I doubt you or your husband would approve

[snowdude 44]

And as you choose to challenge me, my personal experience of a Suzuki Eskudo was it was totally buggered. A couple of Poms had hired one and attempted to take it through a water crossing in Bridgetown WA. It got no-where. Neither in nor out, and I gave a lift in my Alfa Romeo Guilietta to the crestfallen to Bridgetown for a tow out.

 

 

Well not sure about your experience of an escudor, but I have not had any problems with it, not driven it through a river of course, but I have been through both deep snow and deep mud and got in and out fine. Like any 4wd there is a limit, if you go beyond its limit it will get stuck for sure no matter how good it is.

 

I used to ride suzuki motorbikes too, had a GSK600 sports 750 retro RF900, were all good bikes.

Basically I like Suzuki cars and bikes because I think you get a lot for the money, maybe suzuki don't come with as many fancy bits and pieces, but for those who don't mind a little more basic they are good for the money and the quality is good, well at least I haven't had any problems so far.

 

I think at the end of the day it all comes down to what we like or don't like, I guess people will argue here till there blue in the face and still not agree on what car is good bad.

My experience of the escudor is due to nearly 70,000+ks of driving in all weather and road conditions.

 

Just a note I have also driven the Jimny 650 turbo and I have to say it is a great little car, the biggest problem is you can get sod all luggage in it, so not good if you plan on lugging lots of snow gear and boards/skis around in it.