I really like Japan BUT........

[number9 0]

Where did I write that?

[Ocean11 0]

Matey doesn't have a point. It's all reductio ad absurdum.

 

e.g.;

> So, do you succussfully avoid all toxins and harmful chemicals and whatnot in all food you consume? Or is this level of attention paid to only specific ingredients, like whale meat

 

I don't know if I 'successfully' avoid all toxins, but I try quite hard. And I pay a high level of attention to known risks, and also try to avoid ingredients that involve unsustainable practices. There are lots of other people, including Japanese people, who do the same.

 

You're still obviously clinging to your stubborn, ignorant Japanese idea that not hunting whales is driven by sentiment.

[bushpig 0]

you didn't state it as such but the implied logic in your counter to Oceans comment is that because there are other animals in similar situations, that invalidates arguments for protection. Think about it.

[number9 0]

No, I still don't get why whales get special treatment in the eyes of many westerners when compared to other mammals.

 

The truth about whaling sustainability must lie somewhere inbetween conservationists study findings and whaling industry's study findings. Who knows where it is in the wide gap though because all pieces of information about whaling seem to be provided by heavily biased sources.

[Ocean11 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by number9:
No, I still don't get why whales get special treatment in the eyes of many westerners when compared to other mammals.

Can you prove they do? Or is that just something you say when people argue in favour of protecting whales? What, are we supposed to bring say, badgers, into the discussion every time? No, I don't think the UK government should be culling badgers either (but if farmers need to shoot a couple now and again, fine).

 Quote:

The truth about whaling sustainability must lie somewhere inbetween conservationists study findings and whaling industry's study findings. Who knows where it is in the wide gap though because all pieces of information about whaling seem to be provided by heavily biased sources.

Life is full of dilemmas like that, and yet we still have to decide one way or the other if we care. But when one of the biased sources is funded in part by my taxes to provide a product nobody really wants or needs, at the expense of the environment and the good name of Japan, by stubborn tawts who use nationalist propaganda at the drop of a hat, then I find it easy not to dismiss them.

[number9 0]

Funny how playing devil's advocate can get you accused of driving black vans while eating whale

 

Anyways, I often take the foreigner's side in Japanese language political discussions because they tend to be underrepresented too.

 

But the willingness of many to take Greenpeace's (and other similar organizations) words at face value is a bit disturbing. Reminds me of how some people will believe in Chinese government's figures concerning Japan's war time atrocities (they did happen, they were terrible, and millions were killed, but just how many exactly is an unknown figure somewhere inbetween the Japanese and Chinese governments claims), but then the very same people can turn right around and not believe a word China says about Tibet. Hmm..

 

We all have convenient information filters to fit our views, I guess.

[bushpig 0]

yeah well, you play devil's advocat at your own risk mate! Playing devil's advocate implies not necessarily agreeing with what you argue/present though. Are you just trying to wind our cranks?

[Ocean11 0]

Right, well now I know you're a troll who doesn't know your own mind, I'll ignore you. Trolls can never resist outing themselves after ever such a short while...

[number9 0]

A troll?!

 

 Quote:

The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument ad hominem.

 

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities.

 

Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning "Please do not feed the troll", for which PDNFTT is a common initialism.

 

(From Wikipedia, can't link the URL due to parenthesis in the URL.)

[Mantas 3]

A few things puzzle me about the whole Japanese whaling issue.

 

1- Greenpeace has said 77% of the Japanese population is against whaling. That means 23% are either FOR killing whales, or couldn't give a shit, or both. The reality is we are talking about nearly 30 million people! Hardly an insignificant number.

 

2- Bushpig said earlier that the Japanese whaling industry was in bad shape and it was being propped up by the government because "Japan doesn't like being told what to do"

I find it hard to believe they would put themselves through all this grief just to save some face. Maybe I just don't understand the Japanese.

 

3-I also can't understand why this whale meat ( the most controversial meat on the planet ) ends up being sold in poxy little cans at the airport!

[bushpig 0]

The concept of saving face in Japan is HUGE Mantas. It is much more of a factor than we can probably even begin to understand if we try to come from our culture's way of thinking. But, that's not really the issue here. What I was getting at was more of the defiant kid being told what he or she cannot do, especially when he/she considers himself/herself to be an adult. I don't think it is actually all that different to what many other countries do anyway. What adds a lot of complication to the issue is the muddied waters of whether or not it was a traditional industry here in the first place. It is perceived to have been around a long time here (although some argue quite convincingly that it never was until early in the last century) which makes it easy for Japan to get very defensive about it with the reasoning that they are being bullied to drop a traditional industry because of the over hunting of other non-traditional whaling countries. I don't know the figure off the top of my head, but there is a huge surplus of whale meat in frozen storage. The demand is not there, if it was this surplus would not exist. I'll try and track down some of the info I am referring re the whaling companies shifting out of the industry.

[bushpig 0]

Here are a few bits and pieces...

 

 Quote:

A few months back the seven fishing companies that hitherto have

spearheaded Japanese whaling announced they were withdrawing from the

whaling business. The reason given was that they were afraid of being hurt

by the bad PR. The real reason may be that, even with Japanese

governmental support, whaling makes no economic sense. The fish are too

costly to take, and Japanese consumers are barely interested.

 Quote:

Given all the costs involved with whaling in Japan, Japanese whaling

exists only because of the Japanese government, and everything seems to

indicate that that other porpoise, the whaling industry would soon disappear in

Japan were it not for government support.

 

Those from here.

 

and...

 

 Quote:

A pro-whaling group of LDP national and regional politicians is the driving force behind Japanese moves at the IWC and many of them are frequent participants at the annual IWC meeting (Yasukazu Hamada, Yoshimasa Hayashi, Shunichi Suzuki, Kiyoshi Ejima, etc).

 

...

 

The pro-whaling lawmakers are very nationalistic and believe that they are fighting to preserve Japanese national identify. In their speeches this often gets mixed up with rhetoric about the war and the feeling that Japan was forced to renounce some of its national heritage in the postwar period.. Yasukuni pilgrimages, whaling, the return of the Northern Territories and other rightwing causes are all cited as ways to help restore national identity and generate patriotic feeling. They are also guaranteed to harm Japan's international standing, but this fact is usually ignored.

 

from here.

 

In fact there has been a lengthy and interesting discussion happening on the NBR Japan forums on this issue. If you want to see some of the views of leading Japan scholars and experts, then have a look at this link.

[JPchucky 0]

The whaling done by the Japanese and others is quite disturbing, heres another insane activity that goes on in different parts of Japan.

 

-CAUTION- If your a dolphin lover or can't stand blood / suffering better back out now.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjqZi46P8Gs&mode=related&search=

 

I had no idea this went on.

Lots of whaling videos/footage on Youtube as well.

[Ocean11 0]

Mantas, to give you some quick answerlets

 

> 1- Greenpeace has said 77% of the Japanese population is against whaling. That means 23% are either FOR killing whales, or couldn't give a shit, or both. The reality is we are talking about nearly 30 million people! Hardly an insignificant number.

 

This is not a recognizable issue for most Japanese, and it's not something that's ever an election issue (and it's questionable if there really are election issues in Japan anyway). The numbers just relate to a lightly held opinion.

 

2- Bushpig said earlier that the Japanese whaling industry was in bad shape and it was being propped up by the government because "Japan doesn't like being told what to do"

I find it hard to believe they would put themselves through all this grief just to save some face. Maybe I just don't understand the Japanese.

 

> There isn't any grief involved for the Japanese. People still buy Prius's and the other good shit that Japan makes, and the only people who get any grief are the Japanese that go to the IWC to bribe all the little countries and say boo to everybody else. Japanese people do tend to get all 'facey' when challenged about Japan's whaling, but that would vanish in a flash if the Prius's stopped selling because of it.

 

3-I also can't understand why this whale meat ( the most controversial meat on the planet ) ends up being sold in poxy little cans at the airport!

 

> Because it's crap that nobody wants to eat.

 

Thanks for posting that video Motherhucker. I also had no idea the whole thing was done in a such a sordid manner. I expect those machete and crane people have hypocritical little Shinto rites once a year to say 'thanks' to the souls of the dearly departed.

[Oyuki kigan 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:

Thanks for posting that video Motherhucker. I also had no idea the whole thing was done in a such a sordid manner. I expect those machete and crane people have hypocritical little Shinto rites once a year to say 'thanks' to the souls of the dearly departed. [/QB]

do they still do that?

I thought that the area that handles the logical funtions in the brain would spazm uncontrollably and die.

Back in the day, when fishing was not a euphanism for `wholesale rape of the ocean`.

Anyone who is seriously concerned about whaling (and the japanese identity that is being fictionalized around it) should look into what we have done to our fish stocks in the name of 100 yen sushi.

[Mantas 3]

DB & O11 Thanks for that insight into Japanese culture, government and it's people. I kind of figured that those Greenpeace figures were loosely collaborated. It does sound like the average Japanese doesn't know or care about the issue. Not so around here (although I do live in a Whale Watching Cruise industry town )

 

Mutherhucker- Today I said "screw work" and drove up the coast to a remote little spot for a surf. It was a beautiful day in a beautiful place. To top it off a pod of dolphins turned up and put on a show. Doing airial twists and flips. Of course I had a dopey grin on my face the whole time.

 

* I'm still struggling with my own thoughts on this

 

I was deeply appalled by those scenes you posted on Youtube.

But I have to ask myself WHY I was so appalled. The same brutal slaying and animal suffering would be played out a thousand times over in third world slaughter houses, live sheep exports, chicken sheds ect.

A similar thing happens here in Boat Harbour every year with the annual mullet drive.( admittedly they don't hack them with machetes ) Thousands of mullet are hauled up onto the beach, writhing and flipping everywhere, slowly dying. My kids laugh when one occasionally flips out of the departing truck and onto the road.

Imagine the same video with the sad music and commentary but the subject was mullet not dolphin!. It would almost get a run on a comedy show.

What is our sentimental attachment to whales and dolphins?

People love dolphins, me included. Some of us like to think of them as their 'special animal friends'.

 

Are these people guilty of barbary or just lack of sentiment for our 'special animal friends'?

 

I suspect both.

[daver 0]

i suspect our attachment to these 'special animal friends' is because they demonstrate a conscious self awareness.

[Mantas 3]

 Quote:

Originally posted by daver:
i suspect our attachment to these 'special animal friends' is because they demonstrate a conscious self awareness.

You are probably right Daver. Maybe it's that simple.

[Ocean11 0]

I wonder what it's like living in a small town where the economy is based on savage butchery of that sort. I bet they have some proper psychos there. It's generally acknowledged that the business of slaughtering animals needs to be regulated carefully, not just for the sake of the animals but also for what it can do to people.

 

I didn't see any signs of regulation in that video.

[TheOrange 0]

I'm showing that video, along with my attempt at translation, to a number of Japanese friends. (Would be good to have it all in proper Japanese). They are all quite shocked by it.

 

It is truly distressing to see things like that.

[ssar 0]

From, posted April 13 2009:

 

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/04/200941372250966811.html

 

"Japan's whaling fleet has returned to its home port after violent clashes with anti-whaling activists damaged its ships and left the Antarctic hunting season's catch well short of its target, officials have said.

 

Officials said the six vessels had caught 679 minke whales and one fin whale during its five-month hunt, short of the targeted 935 minke whales and 50 fin whales in the hunt that began in November."

 

---

 

It wasn't just "damaged ships" that caused this.

 

The mere presence, chasing, causing whaling vessels (from any country, by the way) to use up significant time & resources to try and escape & avoid the regions in which environmental protection vessels were in played a big part.

And, too, the whaling vessels looking to avoid (international) media scrutiny.

 

We can almost say it has been a job well done, with some positive success, by the environmental protection groups.

 

Unfortunately, too many whales have still been unnecessarily & inhumanely slaughtered.

 

An interesting positive effect of these whaling fleet chases is the similarities between the whales trying to escape slaughter when they sense harpoons coming at them, and the whaling fleets trying to escape environmental protection groups.

Kinda giving them a dose of what they are trying to do - 'cept the whaling vessels are not trying to be harpooned and slaughtered inhumanely.

 

...Perhaps the stakes should be raised, I hear there are a few pirates out of business these days - toss a few million $ under the table to a few of them and make the hunters become the truly hunted?

[Ezorisu 0]

Originally Posted By: ssar

...Perhaps the stakes should be raised, I hear there are a few pirates out of business these days - toss a few million $ under the table to a few of them and make the hunters become the truly hunted?

I'm pretty sure the families of the approximately 260 hostages currently held by the Somali pirates would disagree at this line of reasoning.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

The Somali Pirate thing is WAY beyond ridiculous.

 

It seems like that corner of our generally civilized world is like some sinsiter "Pirates of the Caribean" - or somehow transported back in time to a rape, pillage and destroy mentality. And it just keeps happening. V Sad.

 

Whaling is not something I applaud by any stretch, but the actions of protesters (at times) endangers themmselves and others. I do believe we need Australian Water official protection to keep our waters from being illegally fished/whaled, but apart from that I think this issue is one for public opinion/international pressure and scrutiny and the political negotiators.

 

Vigilante action is never good.

[jared 0]

Getting off topic a little but...

 

Much of the Somali piracy is in response to rampant illegal commercial fishing and the dumping of toxic (nuclear) waste off their coast.

 

 

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gVV_gQDsp1m8v7nPcumVc5McYV-Q

 

"Some Somali pirates have reportedly claimed to be acting as "coastguards" protecting their waters from illegal fishing and dumping of toxic waste.

 

Ould Abdallah cited the case of a Spanish trawler captured by pirates while illegally fishing for tuna off Somalia in April."

 

 

 

[Ezorisu 0]

Originally Posted By: Captain Stag

Getting off topic a little but...

Much of the Somali piracy is in response to rampant illegal commercial fishing and the dumping of toxic (nuclear) waste off their coast.

That's pretty funny, considering that the majority of illegal dumping in nearshore Somali waters was carried out by Somalis who received money from foreign entities to take the waste!