damian 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 When I dream, which I do a lot, I can remember them the next day. I can recall people, and objects, including shapes, sizes, types and colours. I am sure it is like this for other people. As you will well know it is as though you actually saw these things. If a person has been blind since birth, what do they 'see' in their dreams? Link to post Share on other sites
scouser 4 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I don't know. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I had a good one about 'ki' last night. I could grab a ball of ki out of the air and compact it into a tight mass, then throw it at things with destructive effect, or levitate by hugging it to my chest and willing myself up. When I woke up, for the first two minutes I was tempted just to, you know, try the ki-grabbing move, but soon thought better of it. Sad dreams can leave you miserable all day. People who are blind form birth dream about 'form constants'. These are the kaleidoscopic patterns seen after taking certain kinds of hallucinogens, or when pressing your eyeballs hard. They're shapes and patterns that are hardwired into our brains. Link to post Share on other sites
Markie 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Congratulations, Ocean 11, you just invented the cartoon Dragon Ball Z. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I often wondred the same thing db. Also what about those people who are deaf and blind. What langauge do they think in?? Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Author Share Posted November 6, 2002 Now that is a tough one! Ocean answered the dream one very well. This one is much tougher. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 That should keep you thinking for a while!!! I will be very interested in seeing some of the responses!! Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Braille... But who says language is necessary for thought? That's just a tool we use because we have it. We may even use it when it's not appropriate. Animals and babies perform feats of deductive and inductive reasoning without language, and just using their five senses. Eliminating some of the senses would surely limit the interface, although not the inherent capacity. When I dream, I can dream of people and cars and whatever because I've seen them. But people with fewer senses available than me have experienced the same things one way or another. They probably think in terms of the ways in which they've experienced them, although I imagine their thinking is more like lucid dreaming. Link to post Share on other sites
mogski 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I think I will go back to school. I appear to have missed the train of creative thought Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 6, 2002 Author Share Posted November 6, 2002 Yes, he is a clever cookie this Ocean (Harry) chap. His answer also introduces some interesting concepts in Linguistics, of which I understand naught. As a side-track... the chapter of a great book* I am reading at the moment deals with the complete dribble that a famous linguistic expert used to quantify the subject using Set Theory. These science guys just take the complete piss out of her (and other) people who apply concepts of maths and physics to the social sciences without having a clue what they are talking about, but it sounds clever. * the book is "Fashionable Nonsense. Postmodern Intellectuals' Abuse of Science". Really quite entertaining. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Nice answer ocean. I like it. But something about it just doesn't sit properly. I think i could explain but then this thread would get very philosophical!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
sam_casper 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 dogs think but they dont have a language that we know off...?? theres a thought... so if a dog woofs whats tha mean to another dog? Woof (im a springer spaniel) Yap Yap (im a little rat dog) meh... passing thought Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Oceans answer sits pretty well. However, the appearance of lost senses may be misleading. Our modern world programs us to emphasize only a couple of our senses. A blind, deaf individual may fully utilize their remaining three senses to a degree that leaves them, in a 'sense' in touch with as many or even more stimuli than those of us with five. language can definitely be seen as a restrictor as well as an expander of thought and feeling. We constantly try to put thought into words, and if they don't fit, discard the feeling... Take it out of the equation and you have an altered, but not necessarily an absolute diminutive perception of the world. Link to post Share on other sites
Yuki's Passion 1 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 I think Hellen Keller, a truly inspirational person, dreamed of hucking her S#@+ off of a 40 foot cliff into some sick pow! She dreamed of the most pure snow and wanted freshies all day... thats at least what I would like to dream about Link to post Share on other sites
danz 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 hey sbf-girl... acgtually, i think some japanese dude invented this thing called the "bow-lingual"...or something like that...you strap it on your mut and it translates barks into english...no joke! only in japan, of course... danz Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 danz is right. For 14,000 yen plus consumption tax, you can discuss the end of socialism and how good lamp posts smell with your pet labrador. There was a full page ad for this thing in the paper the other day. miteyak, indeed, the issue of stimuli at all is maybe misleading. Perhaps SBF's question is more a matter of how the input, such as touch, smell or whatever is organized without language. I think SBF is assuming that these people lack language to organize their thoughts (?). But my intuition tells me that even if they have no language as such at all (quite unlikely in most cases I should think anyway), the innate human capacity for language would enable them to construct a language of mental symbols of their own. (As an interesting aside, I saw on TV something about two students sharing a flat, one of whom was blind. When the sighted one came home in the evening, he always turned the lights on. But the blind one had been getting about perfectly OK in the flat in complete darkness, making dinner, listening to music etc. I found that quite thought provoking...) Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 We (those of us who can see) are amazing 'sight biased'. Technically, place yerself on a nice wide slope of altering gradient (wearing board), apply blindfold, and one should be able to ride the slope as well as without, balance should be a more from feeling (ears, legs etc.) betcha cant. Anyone wanting to try, please send me a time, place and date for the attempt, photographic evident required (purely for research reasons). Link to post Share on other sites
sam_casper 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 REALLY? has anyone seen it? dose it really work? oh... is it different for different breads of dogs? DO different breads of dogs speak different languages like humans???? huh huh huh ?? theres a thinker Deeb's! Link to post Share on other sites
Markie 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 O.K. This is definitely new for me. Yes, we do eat dogs in Hong Kong. It is illegal, but it does happen. However, I have never tried bread of dogs. And now I hear there are even different breads of dog too! So which one tastes the best? Link to post Share on other sites
sam_casper 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 mmm....im not up for that thought! how could anyone bare eatting a "pet!" but yes,... is that like eating a baby cow asaposed to a big cow... puppy v. dog? BLAH! did u all know that cats pee glows under black light so if you cut one open then would it beam light? Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Ocean - i don't believe that those that have been blind and deaf since birth can a "language" as we know it. It simply isn't possible. Yes, one could use the remaining senses to help formulate ideas and "pictures" in their mind, but this does not show a deep level thought. Let us a take a mountain for example. I don't see how someone who has been deaf and blind since birth could "think" about a mountain the same way we do. They simply wont get the same scope as we do by using vision. Yes, if they are riders or skiers they may get a feel for it, but they can't fully comprehned the size by just using the remaining senses. Comments anyone? I think "language" needs to be defined. There are "vocal" languages that the vast majority of the population use. then there is sign language for the deaf. I supposed you could use a kind of morse code by touching the persons skin, but then there is the problem of teaching it to them in the first place. Hmmmmm, i hope this post makes "sense" to you all!! Cheers Drew Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Author Share Posted November 7, 2002 what someone experiences, for example, their 'experience' of a mountain is, dictated by their belief system. The quality of ones experiences has everything to do about what your belief's are. So whether you see, hear , touch, tase or smell a mountain is not relevant with respect to your experience of it. The only thing that will shape your experience is what you believe about the mountain. This is a little abstract. In fact, you cant even see the mountain, you just think you can. Your eyes detect changes in light, these are transposed into pulses of energy and are transmitted to your brain which recognises this arrangement of energy as a mountain. Your brain then lets you know that you are seeing a mountain and also goes to the effort of recontrcting an exact likness of teh mountain. But are you actually seeing the mountain? No. Having said that, as far as I am concerned I can see the mountain. Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 A huge section of the 'all seeing, all hearing' speaking population are incapable of 'deep thought'. Language on it's own is just another tool, a rather cool one mind you. To conclude that lack of a spoken language precludes the possibility of deep thought is naive. Of course a deaf, blind person won't 'veiw' a mountain the way we do, but if they get close enough, walk up it...etc. they'll formulate their own perception of it. they may well start to associate the size and type of mountain by the smell, feel of wind etc. Can they communicate this to us? prob not in a way we can readily understand. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Put someone who's deaf and blind on a mountain, let them stump about bumping into trees and touching them, falling into bogs and creeks, smelling the air, feeling the wind, noting the absence of other people, they'll soon get the 'picture'. I reckon. Then they can decide whether or not they 'like' mountains. And there you have a thought process and a language of sorts. Sometimes when I'm stumping about lost on a mountain, I often say to myself 'F*%k this for a game of soldiers', but the expression in English is entirely redundant - I already thunk the thought before I then took up the extra processing time to express it. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 7, 2002 Author Share Posted November 7, 2002 Many many years ago I won an award at school for my disection of a movie called The Mask. That is pretty much redundant info, however it is one of the few awards I have ever won. I think I was 14 at the time. Anyway, in this movie a rather/very unattractive but very nice fellow met a pretty blind girl. He attempted to 'teach' her what clouds looked like by putting cotton wool in her hands. He also put a very hot pebble in her hand to teach her the colour red. blah blah. Link to post Share on other sites
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