Best Wax

[XilR8 0]

Heading out to Hakuba tomorrow and want to wax my board in preparation. I have the Toko wax set, I've always just used the 'all-round' wax, but I'd quite like to give the coloured ones a go to see the difference. I have Yellow, for 0 to -4, and Red, for -4 to -10 degree snow temperatures. Which is likely to be best, do you think?

[samurai 0]

I use that set up on my skis. The red is a colder wax (this is a warm storm) but will defend against the sharp (new) crystals better. Save the yellow for older/warmer snow. (spring)

 

on a side note:

I love toko. SCRAPE IT all off. a nylon brush, or a nylon kitchen scouring pad work great for a structure/polish. GET THAT WAX OFF!

 

(perhaps you know, but I see way too many snowboards wtih gobs of wax on them. No scrape/polish = no wax job.) actually those gobs of wax produce vacuums of empty space and grab your base like claws.

 

Some may also comment on how a structure doesn't make much of a difference after a few runs. to me, those first few runs are important too. If you want your wax jobs to last longer, and that's why people don't scrape, I recommend toko's base prep wax. It's dark grey and is used as a pre-wax conditioner. Increases flow during waxing and longevity of whatever wax you use. I have been using toko forever and just this year started using the base prep. It really does make wax jobs last longer. Just use it a couple of times a year. (more info if you want... )

 

have fun...

[XilR8 0]

Good info mate, thanks! I bought a new board in December, so I hot scraped it several times with the base prep stuff just to get plenty of wax into the p-tex. I'll go with the red today then!

[samurai 0]

SSOOO happy to hear you invested in the base-prep! I'll never start a season without it after this season. Absolutely love it!

[SirJibAlot 0]

Depends on what you ride...I like to leave it on a bit heavy (not globs, but i don't scrape the hell out of it). It protects the base when riding on popcorn, jibs, etc. If you are a downhill carver type - scrape away and structure to your hearts delight.

 

-SJA

[samurai 0]

why are you protecting your base from jibs? I mean, I think the very small scratches from pebble rocks, etc have far less drag-effects than excess wax. I understand the desire for abrasion protection, but those small scratches can be stone-ground out, assuming they get that excessive in the first place. (stone grinds don't get done enough imo)

 

Now big gouges, no wax will prevent a core shot.

 

It seems ollying is easier for me on a fast base that doesn't stick to the snow. (yes skiers olly and jib tree stumps too.)

 

I'm not trying to sound like a smart-a$$- it's just that riding is just sooo much easier and more fun when I don't have to work to make my boards slide. Now, some people are athletic enough not to worry about it. Nonetheless, we're talking about pleasure here. speed is your friend. and quite frankly, what is easier to ride is more fun. lubricant is sexy. build up of debris feels not so nice... also, dirt will stick to excess wax, turning your board into patches of sand paper. collecting grains of sand in your base doesn't sound like very good protection... imo

 

scrape it... come on... scrape it. I triple dog dare you to polish your base and tell me after riding tomorrow that you prefer a layer of protection... I'm going to play a sarcastic card and call you on making up excuses to justify being lazy.

 

(scrape at the resort and save your floor from shavings that seem to find their way into every corner of the house.)

[SirJibAlot 0]

Don't get me wrong, i'm not leaving gobs of wax on - I do scrap and I do polish. In fact, when I was on some of the flat areas last week, i was passing just about everyone effortlessly as I was well waxed.

 

I just find that when hitting crusty snow, boxes, and other features - the wax job lasts a bit longer and the base seems to get a small scratches in the wax that never touch the base. Wax isn't going to protect from a sharp rock or other object from gouging the base - but a i haven't found that leaving it on heavy has had any negative impact (although, I haven't done time trials in preperation for the olympics yet.

 

Just for you....I'll try a hard scrape next waxing and let you know how it goes....

 

-SJA

[nzlegend 1]

I have on 8 season old Atlantis Board with the hardest p-tex known to man, I dont know what they did when they made it but its superhard I hit rocks hard and it has little scratches. I dont need wax to protect the base its tough enough to protect itself!

I have had it properly waxed and was never that impressed with the difference until one day I bought Swix F4 Glidewax - Fluorinated Liquid Wax. That stuff is insanely fast its basically like putting teflon on you base. I blow past every one on flat traverses. It cheap and easy and for the lazy bastards like me much easier than the real thing. Many real waxers scoff at it but it really does work.

[samurai 0]

sirjib... to each his own, mate. I think i understand what you mean by scraping, but leaving that minute film for longevity. I used to do the same actually.

 

excuse the rant, but some people don't know... the following is for those readers who wonder what all the fuss is about. Imagine racing an indy car wtih slick tires on a rainy day. You dumb ass!!!

 

I learned about toko base-prep this season. It's really a nice conditioner/pre-wax that REALLY helps with longevity. (only use it once or twice a season) my wax jobs last twice as long now and I have yet to spot any white fibers at the edges after days of riding. and I highly doubt world cup racers use it.

 

base material, as a material, is actually more water-repellent than any wax, as a material; and therefore- faster. It's the surface that we tend to, not the material itself.

 

bases on boards and skis (usually) come with a structure. I have actually seen a friend's board that had no structure... I guess it was under the assumption that the owner would do an initial stone-grind, as many core individuals do, before they even ride their new rides. The structure, like a tire tread, is designed to move water and prevent the hydroplane/suction that happens to perfectly slick surfaces, ie glass. perfectly smooth surfaces don't slide as well as surfaces with a pattern to move the water that is the result of the friction your riding the surface of the snow creates. If smooth were fast, we'd all have diamond polished steel bases. p-tex would not exist.

 

we wax to shape the base. after scraping, a structure (matching the viscosity of the wax) is carved into the wax. Snow crystals, not just temperature, are VERY important to consider in shaping your structure. This is why we have a gagillion options. If it were feasible to actually machine-structure your base every day, wax would not be needed. Wax is customizing your base material with a superficial structure designed to last a day's snow conditions. world cup racers have several of the same skis with different/customized bases to suit the day. This is where the word "quiver" comes from. (no, you're not that cool for having more than one set-up.)

 

Anyway, in an attempt to avoid excessive explanation; scraping and structuring is arguably more important than applying wax in the first place. When I see those globs of wax on people's boards, my eyes roll by themselves. It's intuitive.

 

Anyway, a quick reference from my 20 seasons of waxing experience;

 

soft/warm temperature wax with deep/big structure for warm/rounded snow crystals. Coarse nylon/brass brushes work great. (tip-to-tail strokes only) (think mud/snow tires.)

 

Hard wax, fine structure for cold/sharp crystals/powder. horse hair brushes work great. Even cork applies a fine structure. (think indy tires, slicks)

 

for a general-use structure, a kitchen 3M nylon scouring pad will pretty much suit any non-world cup rider and works fine with pretty much any wax. for the rookie, buy an all-temp wax, a scraper, and a green 3M scouring pad. Done.

 

yellow toko (warm) feels softer than red toko (medium)- that's what I mean by soft vs hard wax. I cringe at having to scrape blue toko (cold) on those cold days. It's like fricking epoxy and is quite tedius to scrape off. Sharp, new crystals don't dig into hard waxes like they do soft waxes. Imagine riding a cotton shirt down a gazillion needles all pointing up. You wouldn't move. On the opposite side of the spectrum; imagine riding slush on slick tires. That is why we use a soft wax for warm/rounded snow- we can create deep structure to move that water. (btw- slush is the most difficult snow to structure for. Ice is the easiest.) On super hard/cold ice, wax makes less of a difference than on wet slush, fwiw.

 

either way, choose one of your 2 or 3 waxes, scrape it all off, down to the base, then structure. if you want it to last, buy base-prep.

 

Please understand that if you leave thick layers of wax on your base in an attempt to make it last, you are actually giving yourself a slow ride that will last a long time. most of us refer to that as Storage Protection. You're better off not waxing, like I said- base material is faster than wax material... for water. and in essence, that is what we are riding on.

 

okay, gomen for the rant, just found a place to put it. Now stop reading and go skiing.

Have I told you to structure yet???

[marnix 0]

If you don't know what you're doing then you're better off by not scraping. In your enthusiasm you might scrape off some base making the base hollow.

 

So scrape, but not all.

[samurai 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Sanno:
If you don't know what you're doing then you're better off by not scraping. In your enthusiasm you might scrape off some base making the base hollow.

So scrape, but not all.

you're not going to scrape off base material. and you won't scrape it hollow. Hollow is void of wax in the first place. hollow is why we wax. sanno, you're one of them I'm preaching too. Now, go scrape your boards.

YOU WILL NOT DAMAGE YOUR BOARDS BY SCRAPING THEM WITH A PLASTIC SCRAPER.
If you don't know what you are doing, then scrape that crap off your board!!! wax is not fast and it is impossible to scrape your base completely dry, at the molecular level. we structure and polish to remove the wax that a scraper can not reach.

damnit sanno!!! it's not rocket science. wax, scrape, polish/structure. done. (don't skip the scraping part, you will not hurt your board.)

I can't believe how irritated that made me...
sanno... you cannot scrape too much... you just can't. It's like telling someone to stop vaccuming their living room- they might remove their carpet.

honestly...

[marnix 0]

You can scrape too much. But that is not exactly what I'm pointing at. It is about scraping too hard. If you don't want to scrape you base 10 times to get a good result, you might try doing it in 5 go's while pressing harder. Also to get the last bit off your base you might press harder than normal, And with a well maintained plastic scraper and too much pressure you can scrape off more than just wax. I have seen several times and I have to admit I have done it too, ruining my favorite race-skis for me.

 

It might not be rocket science but for some it is science. A friend of mine is a professional wax geek. He uses a microscope to check the structure. He prepares skis World Cup racers and speed skiers. It takes him over 2 hours to prepare 1 pair of skis for those guys (that is only the base prep). Indeed no rocket science but very serious business.

 

I'm very happy that I don't ski races anymore and don't need to prepare my skis at a molecular level. I wax, do some scraping (or not) and have fun.

[samurai 0]

yeah sanno, if you are removing more than wax, perhaps your base is base-high. People who are reading this forum for wax tips are not going to hurt their bases. I'm glad your friend is a wax geek and I'm sorry to hear you ruined your favorite race skis with a plastic scraper. I admit it's possible, but the average person reading this isn' going to do any noticable damage. This is not a world-cup waxing forum.

 

wax-scrape (completely)- structure...

[quattro 1]

I'll agree with Samurai

 

If You are starting to remove base with a plastic scraper you are probally base high at that spot use a true bar to check.

I find that brushing will get the last bit of wax that the scraper cant get off. Then use a 3M pad to finish.

[likesDaPow 0]

good thread for rookies, good advice from samurai

[SirJibAlot 0]

I don't know about Toko, I usually use OneBallJay. Seems to work well, no complaints here...

 

-SJA

[XilR8 0]

I usually use the 3M pad and then finish up with the brush - the brush is what I use to put the fine structure in. The 3M pad is too coarse to structure with properly.

[quattro 1]

one of the things to remember it's the base that gets structured not the wax. The wax layer is too thin to be structured.

 

What Is Structure?

As a ski or snowboard slides over snow crystals, heat is created due to friction. This heat, in turn, creates water droplets by melting the tips of the snow crystals. Water is the key to bases that are fast and easier to turn, but only if the correct amount is present under your skis or snowboard. If the snow and humidity is very dry, there may not be enough water present to help improve glide. In this case, it may need to be produced through greater friction between the snow and a base with a smooth or fine structured finish.

When snow is warm or wet, however, excess water can be generated underfoot that creates suction and slows your glide. In this situation, the base should be structured with a pattern, which, similar to tire tread, breaks up suction and helps channel water away. In general, a finer structure with base rills or ridges spaced .5mm or less apart is best for cold, dry snow...and a coarser structure with base rills or ridges spaced .75mm or more apart is best for warmer wet snow.

Another rule of thumb is that the rills or ridges should never be larger than one-half the size of the snow crystals...this avoids crystals from getting stuck in the troughs of the structure and creating drag.

Structuring can make more difference in speed than waxing, according to world cup technicians. It can also make a board or ski easier to turn for recreational riders. Electra (black) bases don't need as deep a structure as a clear sintered base since they develop less heat overall...and fluorocarbon waxes also work well with a finer structure due to their greater water repellancy.

 

Taken from Tongars web site.

[samurai 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by XilR8:
I usually use the 3M pad and then finish up with the brush - the brush is what I use to put the fine structure in. The 3M pad is too coarse to structure with properly.

I prefer brushes too, but more because they are easier to use and more uniform in their structure. It's hard to get a continual runnel with a 3M pad. However, if you scrape and structure at the hill, like I do, a 3M pad is much smaller in your pack and less weight too. I honestly can't notice a day's difference in teh two structures. (unless it's slush, nothing beats a coarse brush in the slush)

I would imagine, xiler8, that buffing it first with a 3M pad, as you do, probably helps bond the wax to the base fibers via friction/heat before you brush your structure in. Others use a cork first and press really hard, generating more heat after the scrape (apparently) broke the wax.

Someone mentioned Oneballjay. It seems most people I know find a wax and like it. I don't know the molecular differences and may care if I actually read up on it. Nonetheless, any other waxes people are using? I know I can do a search on another forum, but would like to know about experiences in japan. I would also like to hear from anyone who has switched waxes and noticed a difference.

there are some new gels/sprays/liquids on the market these days-- experiences??? Cheers

[samurai 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by quattro:

and fluorocarbon waxes also work well with a finer structure due to their greater water repellancy.

CANCER!!!

Just to confuse/intrigue those who are still reading---

fluorocarbon waxes (high fluoro/HF) (low fluoro/LF) are pricey and used mainly by racers. I have used them in past years but have given up since I learned they should be applied while wearing a respirator. Apparently, and I wouldn't need to argue, they can cause cancer.

http://www.enn.com/press.html?id=105

suddenly buying the pricey stuff seems kinda counter-producutive, imo.

there are also some newer biodegradable waxes on the market. experiences???

Most basic waxes are non-fluro.

[SirJibAlot 0]

I tried the Gallium stuff recently (needed a new iron and they had some trial wax). It seemed to work good enough - I used the violet wax (0 - 3). I left my usual thin layer (yes Samurai, i did scrape....) and I buffed it with a 3M. I was tempted to buy toko the other day, but I still have a lot of oneballjay left.

 

-SJA

[samurai 0]

toko has been around a while, but that is not enough to convince me that is any better than anything else. Glad to hear gallium wasn't irritating. Some day I may choose to research more. Until then... keep them coming...

 

I wonder if there is a secret wax-warehouse making all waxes. Like Intel claiming that microprocessors actually perform at different speeds. (all chips made by intel under a gig are the exact same, programmed to perform at different speeds to satisfy all niches of computer buyers... pricks/geniuses. I learned such from my old pc-geek roomate who reprogrammed his processor and don't know how much validity it has today... nonetheless...

[quattro 1]

Have been using Swix and Dominator for awhile now with good results. The Swix CH & LF is temperature specific and the Dominator Zoom is all temperature.

[samurai 0]

did you buy the dominator in japan? I haven't looked yet. I've read good reviews from the guys at epic as well. I'll try it if I see it.

[quattro 1]

I found it in a store in Sapporo. Actually several of the more specialized ski stores up this way have it.