Have you been lost in a white-out?

[Kumapix 0]

someone remind me not to go in the bc with snosurf!

[snosurf 0]

Hey well at least i'm still alive... well maybe if I was the last person on earth then you'd be better off with me than riding alone!

 

Plus, I am pretty cool.

[coldcat 0]

snosurf, I think he said it for the person that was riding with you...

 

I think it's better to keep together in such conditions. But I've never been really lost and have nearly zero-experience in bc, so can't really tell.

[Kumapix 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by snosurf:
well maybe if I was the last person on earth then you'd be better off with me than riding alone!

you do have a point.

but if you are intending to go out of bounds you should prob take a class about proper avy safety. It will blow you away how much you unknowingly risked your life (I speak from personal experience).

[damian 0]

Snosurf - sorry to push the point, but I think you missed it. Please don't feel criticised or attacked, you probably are really nice guy.

 

Reading your response, this is what popped into my head:

 

1. having av safety gear would have been almost useless to you since you were alone. And it doesn't prevent an accident anyway.

2. even if you were wearing a beacon, no one could see you anyway. So no one could rush to your aid and search for your buried quickly dying body. [i repeat from my first post: do not depend on other people seeing you in the first place]

3. you were over confident having ridden the peak several times in the last 2 weeks. Conditions change fast, especially after a day of wind and snowfall.

4. you cited wind and heavy snow had closed the peak. Wind causes windslab, which is snow that has blown into place from another spot and settled in a denser slab on top of the existing snow. Wind slab is arguably the number two cause of avalanche deaths. The number 1 cause is the people who trigger their own death slide.

5. you said you were not in any danger, but that was in retrospect. It sets a nasty precedent and reinforced the sense of "she'll be right" whilst adding nothing to your avalanche risk awareness.

6. how steep does a slope need to be for an avalanche? How steep is Niseko peak? How long do those steep bits have to be to result in death? FYI: 50m vert of 35 degrees will probably do it, even less if there is a side loaded gully into a terrain trap.

 

I honestly don't care if a person doesn't take any avalanche safety gear into the back country, so long it is just him and his mates. But if I am in the area, I'd prefer people to be properly equipped so that they can participate in a rescue of me if needed and so that my beacon search for them is not in vain. And obviously if you are part of my group on the day, you will have all the gear and have practised using it with me.

 

Check out the link in this post for an example of how easily you can die.

http://www.snowjapanforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/5/116.html#000008

 

Take this online Canadian Avalanche Association training course. I bet you learn something good.

http://access.jibc.bc.ca/avalancheFirstResponse/index.htm

[snosurf 0]

haha ok then.

 

Getting way too tech on me there spuddy!

 

I really don't know shit about the backcountry or avalanches...so it's good to learn.

 

Yeh I know i'm complacent, ignorarnt, unprepared perhaps even a little arrogant. But I lived to tell my tale.... I suppose you could call it calculated risk.

 

1 point though - The patrol opened the peak so one would assume that the snow-pack was reasonably safe... the only caution was in regards to a cornice - about 500m-1km to the side, which i was well clear of.

But i'm not trying to argue with anything you just said.

[Kumapix 0]

thanks for going there spud

 

I didn't know where to start

[Fattwins 0]

Never trust Japanese patrol is one mistake, they know jack about avie control.

 

Second you made the same mistake twice really which is a bit stupid. Look its a typical auzzie Niseko mistake really and you arent the first nor will you be the last to do so.

 

We all make mistakes and need to learn from them. Trust me im not perfect and ive let my powder head suck me into stupid situations before.

 

Remember to stop think and dont hike in bad weather unless you really have to.

[snosurf 0]

No doubt, it's no secret it takes me a little longer than the normal person to learn things!

 

Hate to be pigeon-holed into the infamous 'Aussie in Niseko' category of riders... but I can't blame you based on what i've just posted.

 

Still, it's good to generate this kind of discussion because it's obviously more important than people think. I'm travelling with mates this season so I can make sure we all stay together in the bc and have some safety gear and don't take any un-necessary risks. Thanks for all the (constructive) criticisms.

 

Would hate to become another avie statistic.

[damian 0]

Snosurf sorry for the bombardment mate - I set out trying not to be too tech for you, but failed. Too much jargon in one big lump. But you responded well to the flurry of posts regarding the avvy risk. Thats cool.

 

Besides the risks of riding alone in avalanche terrain, if there is anything to take out of this side topic it could be the causes and dangers of windslab on a 35 degree slope. Just focus on that for the moment. It is essential knowledge for any off-piste rider, especially in crowded Niseko when searching for fresh tracks after no fresh snow for a windy week, so you start sussing out protected gullies and groves into which the wind has blown snow and covered the crud (yes, I have read that in the Niseko Now reports).

 

I'll leave the research up to you:

http://access.jibc.bc.ca/avalancheFirstResponse/index.htm

 

Getting equipment is important, but keep in mind that letting crew see your beacon whilst eating some shitty curry rice for lunch in Niseko is irrelevant to being avalanche aware. Equipment is secondary: If I die in an avvy, I bet I'll be wearing my beacon at the time. Its the decisions that you make that matter. And decisions are based on info and knowledge. So get into it. You should all own beacon-shovel-probe, but this winter you can lead your mates in the knowledge department. And then if you come to the Alps in your travels next season I can take you out to do some big long steep couloirs that would make Fattwins shake

 

See you there.

 

 

OTHER STUFF, not to distract from the above:

 

My opinion is this:

 

1. if you don't know the angle, shape and aspect of a slope you are on/near AND

2. if you don't know the direction of recent wind AND

3. you don't understand why this is important

 

THEN: you shouldn't be off the groomed run at all.

 

Its like rocking up at the beach and not knowing what a rip is nor how to identify one. I'd tell a Swiss tourist in Sydney to swim between the flags if they didn't know.

 

I totally identify with the Australian mindset of "give it a go", "she'll be right" and "I lived to tell my tale". They play in my mind all the time. And I know that they will get you into trouble in the mountains. But mate, don't be the uninformed Australian that dies in an avalanche this winter. Take the time to do the online course.

 

(I'm not trying to preach, I just used to do exactly what you did and now that I know different I cringe at how much risk I was totally unaware of)

 

 Quote:

1 point though - The patrol opened the peak so one would assume that the snow-pack was reasonably safe

In some countries, perhaps. I have ridden slopes that patrol opened after blasting and failing to produce a slide. Hell, I have ridden over the little dirty holes in the snow from the small dynamite sticks they use. I felt safer, but not safe. The avalanche risk indicator that day indicated a risk of 3 out of 5. Loads of deaths happen on 3/5 days. Do Niseko parol blast? Do the fly avalanche risk flags? Do they supply new info each morning on recent weather activity and the things to look out for on different slope aspects?

 

ps - Its good you noticed the cornice! They are the good buddy of wind slab. If there is fresh cornice then expect some slab. But no cornice does not mean no slab.

[montoya 0]

after re-reading your first post, just wanted to add another note about white-out conditions. sometimes it's not just our actions we have to worry about, but other groups in the area that you can't see/can't see you. last year around this time there was an avie fatality in tateyama/murodo, a group triggered a cornice fall upon another group below, supposedly in fog white-out conditions.

[Fattwins 0]

Ive been in 3 slides mate 3, it isnt fun and in every case i made a mistake but... In every case I was not alone and had people Ive trusted right there.

 

1st big sluff slide cut back into my own garbage and it took me for a scary ride.

 

2nd noticed shearing and still tried to push into an area to traverse around boom number 2.

 

3rd got caught up in the powder moment and watch a friend trigger a wind slab not fun mate.

 

In all we were prepared though to at least try to rescue each other and it is our mini code here. If you cant even try to save yourself you are pretty much dead.

 

Get some gear learn to use it but also know that your head is your best weapon. Dont get pow blind even though its hard not too.

[moloneb3 0]

Wow just been reading those posts there. It must be a crazy experience. What is it like i.e. not the experience, the slide of the snow? If you are standing will it knock you off your feet, will it carry you with it? It must be a frightening experience. Is it for off piste action that people get caught out on?

[eskimobasecamp 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by montoya:
after re-reading your first post, just wanted to add another note about white-out conditions. sometimes it's not just our actions we have to worry about, but other groups in the area that you can't see/can't see you. last year around this time there was an avie fatality in tateyama/murodo, a group triggered a cornice fall upon another group below, supposedly in fog white-out conditions.

very very true. i think that incident happened a couple of days before fubuki and i went to tateyama last november... it was still a white out when we got there, and so many people travelling all over the terrain in bad weather conditions.

[snosurf 0]

It's good to know all this stuff...I do appreciate the advice, and while their is a lot of criticism I am not so stubborn to understand that it is all in the interests of safety. So thanks boys and girls.

 

With regards to bc safety, given the intricacies of slope angle, wind direction and snowpack conditions, it seems to me that a person with little knowledge of a ski area (ie a tourist/me in japan) shouldn't be going into the backcountry at all...I mean, even if they had a topo map (and knew how to read it), current accurate weather details, a good knowledge of avalanche safety and appropriate safety gear there still seems to be so many other factors to consider.

 

(REFERENCE -spud. thanks man)

 

Then of course there is still a chance that even if you take all these precautions, you could end up in the wrong place at the wrong time and fall victim to the thoughtless actions of some backcountry cowboy who rides over a cornice above you triggering an inevitably fatal slide.

 

I hear stories of bc guides who know SFA... therefore, it could be argued that going on a guided bc tour is not necessarily completely safe either...Can anyone recommend any good guides in Hakuba?

 

I definitely want to spend some time in the bc this winter but i don't have the money to do many guided tours....

[Fattwins 0]

2 guides i trust one Dave evergreen

two matsumoto san at rappies.

matsumoto san can speak english.

[Kumapix 0]

Snosurf you've got a great attitude.

alot of guys come on here and get all defensive when people try to educate them about how dangerous mountains are.

The thing is, we all know the point you are at now, since we were there ourselves. I highly recommend a guided tour since you can rent the equipment. They show you how to use it (I think) and explain things throughout the day. After a tour then you can decide if a)you want to spend a lot of dough and get the gear and the training or staying inbounds is enough fun

[snosurf 0]

Thanks FT and kuma,

I appreciate the help... Definitely be looking into organising a tour with dave or matsumoto, and i'll tell them they were recommended.

[dizzy 0]

yes, snosurf listen to what everyone is telling you. you'll learn tons.

 

fyi, one day last spring, kuma and i went for some bc.

moderate wind, warming temperatures in the previous 24 hours with clouds rolling in fast was the weather that day. we bagged our original plan, which was to go higher than 2000m, and instead went to a ridge with a slope on a different aspect. it turned out we had made the right decision: there were at least two reported slides in the are we were going to go to.

 

kuma, i was looking here and saw noticed the posts were for the same day as those photos you sent me the other day. we had made the right choice to find a safer area.

 

i relay this story in the hope that snosurf, you'll reflect and learn from it.

the reason kumapix and i could make our

decisions was b/c of our experiences and the course we'd had taken (same course, at different times).

[Kumapix 0]

Just to add to dizzy's report.

there had been a storm the day before which brought lots of pow on top of super hardpack. The day we went up was bluebird and everyone was hitting the higher slopes. Even after we decided to scrap the original plan and go safe, we were second-guessing ourselves as we could see all the punters getting screaming pow lines.

I think some people died in the Goryu bc that day.

let's get some more good days this year Diz

[eskimobasecamp 0]

dizzy that's a great site

[Kumapix 0]

just re-read that report dizzy. do you know exactly where it occurred? I don't know the place names