TR: still no skiing

[damian 0]

As I mentioned last week, I was going to the glacier in Zermatt this weekend but it really didn't seem worth the effort. So instead I explored a cool hanging valley near Andermatt, also in everyone's most hated country, Switzerland.

 

I know this really is not relevant to the forum, but what the hell.

 

What looked like some recent snow higher up turned out to rock-hard neve that the wind had polished like glass. We (me and The Pig) hiked 1300m vert in little over 3 hours, it was hard work at nearly 10 per minute the whole time. We topped out at 2800m and decided against the next leg across and up the ridge to 3000m. The Pig was having a really hard time on the neve and I was sliding quite a bit as well. Balancing with no free arms, I had to carry him down some parts as he kept getting into out of control four paw slides. And if it wasn't ice, it was scree consisting of big unstable slabs. So rather than go up the ridge to the next nice peak we ended up dropping down a little and traversing around the cirque for 3 strained hours to reach a good camping spot near a lake. We found ourselves in some stupid situations along the way. The traverse seemed like a good idea as I was too lazy to drop down 300m to easier ground just to climb back up to my goal after crossing the valley. I don't mind a scramble up rock ledges, but I had to carry the dog in places and quickly lift him up or down sections too high for him before he ran off trying to find some hairbrain route to where I am standing. On the flips side, he fly's up 60 degree grassy embankments with ease, kicking rocks down on me whilst I am ripping chunks of mud and weed out of the slope and kicking little rock out from below me. Luckily these sections where relatively short. It was good fun, but a little bit on edge at times. We camped the night near a glacial scree lake at 2700m and had a nice view before a pretty decent storm hit. I had my new one man light weight tent and it stood up very well. It was a cold night so I had to let the dog sleep inside my bag.

 

Amongst other good lines in the isolated valley, this is the main NE face that I went up to scope out. Besides being generally very ridable, it has a good chute down the middle line. Its steep and really hard to reach in winter, but there is 4 resorts worth of terrain up in that little valley. Its a gold mine.

 

This is the ridge that I climbed up and then traversed across to where this picture was taken. The face pictured above is further around the curve on this picture's right.

 

The Pig tops out before me. He's looking around for the cafe. Darling would love a latte.

 

You see these around the place, but I have no idea why they would do av control up here. There are no assets nor people to protect and just getting up the nearest road by vehicle to fire the bomb would be hard work. I was really surprised to find it.

 

Across in the distance I saw some good lines for me and Toque if he ever bothers to come to Switzerland (Fattwins is scared of glaciers and steep lines). They are fully glaciated couloirs, so really only nice riding with a sticky spring pack. I can count at least 4 lines on that face, good for a couple of days camping on the broad glacier below them.

 

The view before I went to bed. I slept for 12 hours in the storm, it felt good to rest up there out of it all.

 

I don't know how recent the melting has been, but this is the smallest glacier I have ever seen. Twice the length and width of a bus. The mini-glacier even had its own little crevasses (more like small cracks and ripples). In the background you can see where another larger one used to run. It is the brown stripe of boulders running down from right to left. Looking closely you can even see the 'imprints' that remain from the lateral crevasses. I found few really interesting glacier related things up there, including one almost extinct glacier consisting of little more than a small patch of ice. He wont last next summer.

 

Some footage of the dog. That little bastard is unstoppable going up mountains. But on super slippery ice he slides around quite a bit, despite having retractable crampons which when deployed almost left scratch marks down the ice (not really, but they made a good scraping noise)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4MjE_a5uE8

 

So, no skiing as I had been planning but to be honest, the hike was way more rewarding than yo-yoing up and down lifts all day.

 

 

.

[mattlucas 0]

Cool dude

I'll get over there someday

 

I saw a few very small glaciers like the one in your picture on my travels in the summer. One of them I thought was just a summer snow field and I was walking all over it until at night I looked at my map and it showed as blue. Next morning I crossed it again so obviously I wasn't very worried

 

Do you think that old glacier inyour picture is now a rock glacier?

Or is it completly gone

[Fattwins 0]

We get to see more of your dog then you.

Its sad but one day there will be no glaciers.

[mattlucas 0]

I don't know about that dude

Gonna be a long time before that happens

The big polor icecaps are still very thick and the icecaps in BC are still quite big as well

 

I know what you are saying though

[eskimobasecamp 0]

nice pictures

[montoya 0]

nice photos, big big mountains.

 

10 meters/minute is a pretty good pace, especially hauling up a tent.

[Goemon 0]

Look at that pot-bellied pig go!

[Fattwins 0]

The fact is that some are just plain melting and wont be around in a few years. But you are right they all wont melt just yet. The world is old and has more than likely seem cycles simlar before.

[daver 0]

ummm, no not like this before it has not. and that is documented scientific proof. despite what global warming nay sayers try to say.

and glaciers are actually receding at an alarming rate. just take a look at photos of the athabasca from twenty years ago.

 

nice pics spud! looks like a fun trip.

[soubriquet 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by daver:
ummm, no not like this before it has not. and that is documented scientific proof. despite what global warming nay sayers try to say.

What is the documented scientific proof that glaciers in their present forms have always existed?

[daver 0]

never stated that and you know it.

i'm talking about the rate of temperature increase in the last 30years, and the argument suggested by some to defunct global warming that there have always been periods of warming and cooling. yes there have been, but like the rate of warming we are seeing now, no. and i know you know that too.

[damian 0]

Toque - I'll post another picture of that rocky brown stripe: higher above it is a small patch of solid glacier, still marked on the map. It is small, but is clearly a glacier. So I wouldn't be surprised if further down the glacier is under the rocks as you suggest. You’re pretty safe walking on small glaciers in summer as even if there are any cracks they are fully exposed and you can see them.

 

The entire cirque at the head of the hanging valley was once a system of glaciers feeding a bigger glacier. Today it is a collection of boulders and loose rubble, mud and gravel from this previous glacier action. None but the smallest patches of glacier remain. Visually it is obvious that some melted a very long time ago. Some also are quite recently melted; my ignorant guess is within the last decade. Glaciers recede and advance constantly and the evidence of previous levels of advancement - since receded - is all around you in the form of very fresh looking terminal moraines. Science at the moment suggests that this period of alarmingly rapid glacial recession will not be followed by an advance in the next 25 or 50 years unlike in the past 300 years when some glaciers have advanced and receded like a yo-yo by 100's of meters in each cycle. I'll post some data on that later on as well (I'm at work now).

 

FT - so you are scared of steeps? Seriously, I agree that some day in the next 10 years a lot of smaller glaciers will just not be there, but it won’t be the first time. It is a hard one to get our heads around. I stood in a valley yesterday that was 300m deep and 1000m wide and once upon a time it was all glacier, so too was the bigger valley into which this hanging valley ran, except that was 1000m deep and 3000m wide. The world must have been a strange place during the last big ice age.

 

Reading Blair's recommendations today.... I think politicians and people are changing quickly in favour of fighting for a future. But the word 'Green' won't be used as a label to describe the initiative. For too long 'Greens' have been cast as left wing homosexual artists offering bad breath from herbal toothpaste rather than job security. There will be an environmental renaissance under the banner of modern progressive economic society (better than nothing?)

 

Goemon - that pot belly powers his permanent 4wd.

 

Montoya - I was on relatively small peaks in the range, but there are certainly some big mountains in the distance. 10m vert per minute is a cracking pace for me. On a cloudy day I can do it in winter up 40-45 degree hardpack slopes on snow shoes carrying gear, but not for 3 hours running. Yesterday the going was faster than normal as most of it was not that steep. In fact it took about 3 km of horizontal travel to gain 1.3km rise. There was two steep section with a long gentle angle section in the middle. Also, I bought a new tent that is reasonably light: 1.5kg. Plus I have been training a bit and hungry to get back in the mountains and move at my pace and feel some pinch.

 

Anyway, it’s all well and good to go, observe, think and talk about the physical glacial environment and our environmental future. The disgraceful irony is that it took me 1400km of round trip driving to do it (but it was in a 1.2 litre city car).

[soubriquet 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by daver:
never stated that and you know it.
i'm talking about the rate of temperature increase in the last 30years, and the argument suggested by some to defunct global warming that there have always been periods of warming and cooling. yes there have been, but like the rate of warming we are seeing now, no. and i know you know that too.

We only have instrumental records for the past 150 years or so, so there is no scientific evidence that current rates of warming are unprecedented. Prior to the modern era everything is inferred from proxies. The proxies show that there have been periods of rapid climate change, from glacial to interglacial in about 150 years or less. That is a 10 to 15C warming.

If you are truly interested in climate change, I recommend van Andel, T.J. New views on an old planet. Cambridge Universtiy Press, 1994. It's a bit old now, but he has a really good grip on Earth Science and environment processes. It is popular science, but infintely better than popular ignorance.

[daver 0]

sorry spud, i don't mean to hijack this thread of yours. perhaps soub we should "take this outside" so to speak.

 

 Quote:

Originally posted by soubriquet:

We only have instrumental records for the past 150 years or so, so there is no scientific evidence that current rates of warming are unprecedented. Prior to the modern era everything is inferred from proxies. The proxies show that there have been periods of rapid climate change, from glacial to interglacial in about 150 years or less. That is a 10 to 15C warming.

i am interested and by no means do i suggest i understand this issue thoroughly. however i do like to stay informed about issues i care about.

 

i will pose one more question and then perhaps we should take this discussion elsewhere. by proxies do you mean ice core records? or does that count as instrumental data? if it does, do we not then have records dating back thousands of years?

[damian 0]

>sorry spud, i don't mean to hijack this thread of yours. perhaps soub we should "take this outside"

 

No worries mate, keep the topic as its heading, no need to start a new thread. It’s moving in a more productive direction than the starting sentiment of ‘hey everyone, look at these pictures of my dog’

[soubriquet 0]

Goody. Everything that is not measured directly by an instrument is a proxy. Ice core records are one, along with tree rings, pollen records, coleoptera, French wine harvests, Norwegian tithes and Icelandic fishing records. King of the long term records are the foraminfera stable isotopes.

 

I'm really happy to develop this, and put up what I know, and can support. But not tonight, and tomorrow I'm busy building snow protection. Be patient and stay tuned.

 

FWIW, my first degree was in Environmental Sciences (UEA) and my second in Sedimentary Geology (Reading). I've spent 20 years working with palaeoclimatology, as a student and as a researcher.

[damian 0]

>coleoptera

 

Do you think she was as sexy as historical proxy records make her out to be? Without a photograph we will never know. I think she was hot.

[SerreChe 2]

Spud, the shell remnant is most likely a blank from a military exercise, not for av control. You can find similar stuff in France as well.

[soubriquet 0]

I should introduce you to Coope. He claims(ed) to be able to recognise 3,000 different species of beetle. I have no reason to doubt him. He's a great conversationalist

 

Beetles are nice because individual species have very specific living (environmental) requirements, and their hard parts preserve very well. Beetles give wonderful proxy evidence of past climates. I can see I'm, loosing you db... Perhaps you find it difficult to get past Page 3 of The Sun.

[damian 0]

But I see them near resorts, and I wouldn't have thought the military would train with blanks near resorts? Come to think of it, I see them all over the bloody place. You may well be correct.

[damian 0]

>I can see I'm, loosing you db... Perhaps you find it difficult to get past Page 3 of The Sun.

 

I hope that was a joke to go along side mine.

[damian 0]

>Do you think that old glacier inyour picture is now a rock glacier? Or is it completly gone

 

Ok, the remaining larger (but still small) patch of glacier above the brown stripe of boulders discussed above. This is extremely small and I suppose would have been the accumulation zone of the previously much larger glacier. To me it is novel as it is so very small and benign relative to the ones I normally see.

 

And here is the final breath of another glacier. The upper patch is pure ice and the lower white bits are also ice with more air bubbles. There is ice under the rocks, but the fat lady has sung for this glacier. You can see the large moraine on the pictures left where the edge of the glacier had previously been. This one in it hey day would have run all the way down into the lower valley.

 

Once upon a time these almost dead glaciers were part of a much bigger glacier system that probably looked a bit like this.

 

As an example of dramatic advance and retreat of glaciers in relatively small periods of time: Trient Glacier in Switzerland (near Chamonix)

 

http://glaciology.ethz.ch/messnetz/data/trient.html

 

Since 1994 it is ugly, so too is the overall trend

 

1994-1995 retreated 40m

1995-1996 retreated 21m

1996-1997 retreated 50m

1997-1998 retreated 60m

1998-1999 retreated 80m

1999-2000 retreated 180m

2000-2001 retreated 30m

2001-2002 retreated 35m

2002-2003 retreated 50m

2003-2004 retreated 19m

2004-2005 retreated 35m

 

The black line is the cumulative advance-decline of the glacier

 

[nzlegend 1]

Great post DB very interesting, what altitude are those photos of the nearly extinct mini glaciers?

 

Global warming is whore ( just like irony huh?)

rising ocean temps, retreating ice caps, ablating glaciers etc and I still find it difficult to believe some people out there are in denial to the fact humans are seriously influencing it.

Sure the world has cycles but humans are screwing up the balance of those cycles swinging the equilibrium too far to the point it may not swing back again.

 

I have always had an interest in glaciers, I did a class at Uni on them, also did a class on coastal erosion - both equally interesting.

[Ocean11 0]

> That little bastard is unstoppable going up mountains

 

I was going to say what a cute little dog it is, but then I noticed that he has a pretty big cock for a such a little dog. You need to get him fitted with some carrying capacity - a tent rack might be just the thing to instil some discipline and stop him scampering about aimlessly like that.

 

SG, soubs isn't in denial about humans affecting global warming - he seems to be in a position to be skeptical about it due to his own researches.

[soubriquet 0]

OK. Sorry team. Last night I had a rare (first in 3 years), brief and pithy phone conversation with my ex-. Right now I'm suffering from terminal sense of humour failure. I usually keep a spare somewhere but I'm buggered if I can find it.

 

O11 is right. I have no doubt that human activity is responsible for part of the global warming which has occured during the past 100 years. I think it's a bstard. I hate waste and hate to see the glaciers retreating.

 

Palaeoclimatology is a fascinating (to me) subject. I have been peripherally involved with it for over 20 years. I'll put some stuff up later, but I'm going to exile myself for a while.