"Give an Afghan your vote", activists urge Britons

[Go Native 70]

Originally Posted By: Jynxx

We do have a right not to vote.

Not if you are registered to vote in Aus

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

Originally Posted By: MitchPee

True, but then again it undermines everything about the democratic political process. Ie, the ones who want to exercise their vote generally put a bit of thought into it. Rather than if you are coerced into voting, you may just make some random selection. While I realize most people don't do this, it still is an issue that could lead to the selection of the wrong candidate.

I don't agree it undermines the democratic process at all. Democracy is about the population making a choice who leads them. Forcing them to make a choice is in my opinion going to get the most representative vote of the entire populations will, not just the segment of the population who can be bothered turning up on polling day. It's not perfect and I certainly haven't always agreed with who gets in power but I don't think there is a much better way to get a higher percentage of people actively participating in the democratic process.

but what about having the freedom to choose NOT to vote? Whether thats because you are a lazy sod or using it as a protest of those who are standing, I think that everyone has the right to do with their vote what they wish. Co-ercion is counter productive. I personally feel that everyone should vote but if you choose not to then thats your right.


MB I disagree that spoiled votes are a waste of time, it can be a protest vote as well, a way to say that you DO want to be part of the democratic process but have no confidence in those who are standing.

Just a pity we don't don't have "None of the Above" choice

[Go Native 70]

And that's why some people in Aus cast invalid votes. Seriously though if you've got to the stage where there is not even one party running that represents at least some of the views you believe in then you've really got some problems haven't you? Finding yourself with such extreme views that no political party is available to represent you must be very difficult

Plus this idea that you have a right not to vote is not based on any law found in Australia. If you have that right in the country you live in that's great, excercise that freedom. It's not one that's available to Aussies and is not, at aleast when I lived there, a big issue for most Aussies.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

And that's why some people in Aus cast invalid votes. Seriously though if you've got to the stage where there is not even one party running that represents at least some of the views you believe in then you've really got some problems haven't you? Finding yourself with such extreme views that no political party is available to represent you must be very difficult
Plus this idea that you have a right not to vote is not based on any law found in Australia. If you have that right in the country you live in that's great, excercise that freedom. It's not one that's available to Aussies and is not, at aleast when I lived there, a big issue for most Aussies.

yeah we know, thats what's being debated

[Go Native 70]

What's to debate? Is the right not to vote something you consider a basic human right that everyone on the planet should have? Maybe Australia should receive economic sanctions until they rescind this draconian hardship on the poor downtrodden Aussie populace

Those meany politicians forcing all those poor reluctant souls to get out of bed and participate in democracy

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Nobody is attacking Australia, people are simply discussing the unusual situation that Australia has. For someone who doesn't care about Australia, you sure are pretty defensive about it.

 

Can't you see the irony in the fact that they are forcing people to take part in democracy?

[Go Native 70]

I'm not defensive about Australia, but defensive about a voting sytem that I believe in. It just happens to be in Aus.

The irony is a little lost on me but I grew up in that system. It's not strange to me and I think it has a lot of benefits.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

I'm sure it does have benefits, the obvious one is 100% voter turn out (although I'm sure not everyone will turn out, it must be pretty damn high). Voter apathy is a problem in voluntary systems, and as someone mentioned before, some of the people who would benefit most by a change in government tend not to vote and so not be represented in the elected officials. However if they are unhappy with the Status Quo, the apparatus is available for them to foment change if they'd get off their lazy asses and vote. Now the compulsory voting negates this by making it mandatory to vote, but then you get anger at being forced to vote.

 

For me I think that you should vote and if you don't, then you don't have a right of complaint against the government/system/society. Even if its a Spoiled Vote, you consciously took time out of your day to register that spoiled vote, so taking part in the democratic process. If you didn't go anywhere near the voting booth, then fine thats your choice, BUT don't complain about the officials who are elected in because you had your chance and did nothing about it.

[Go Native 70]

I also think that the compulsory voting system helps to keep politics in Aus more centered rather than extremes of left and right. Because to get voted in you truly need to convince 51% of the voting population that you're the right choice. Compare to say a country that has a 65% voter turnout. Now you only need to get 51% of the 65% who turned out to get voted in. This can allow extremely vocal and well organised minority groups, say like the Christian Right in the US, to have a much greater influence on politics than their total numbers really should in a true representative democracy. In the compulsory voting system you need to appeal to a much wider spectrum of society to get the votes which limits the influence of the nutters.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Actually GN, what you need to do to get voted in is make deals with the minor parties to have their preferences directed to you thereby gaining a majority by default. An absolute majority is a rare occurrence in Australian elections.

 

And the bizarre thing is that deals are often brokered seat by seat, rather than by party line - the Greens candidate may give their preferences to the Liberal candidate in some seats whereas the majority of Greens votes end up on a Labor pile.

 

What is amazing is that many people have no concept that their vote in the end is either Labor or Liberal or not counted (informal or exhausted).

 

Tubby - I hear your point about people who cast an informal vote as 'having their say'; but I dispute that perception. Informal votes don't send much of a message other than "I don't care" ... and no one does much with them. (except the electoral commission who examine every single informal ballot multiple times and record what type of ballot it was - blank, number in only one box, identifiers on the paper, penises drawn on paper...etc)

 

If someone wanted to make a statement they are better off voting for a minor party first, and selecting their preferences carefully to elect the preferred option between labor and liberal. When the minors get lots of votes they end up having representation in parliament - and then pollies start listening.

[Go Native 70]

Yeah I know all that MB I was just trying to keep it simple. Still even if people are somewhat ignorant about where preferences go from the minor party they vote for it's not like it's a completely wasted vote. Assuming they have voted for the minor party because they believe in what they stand for (a big assumption I know) then they can have some faith that the preference votes are to further the agenda of that minor party depending on what deals they have been able to broker with a major party.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Originally Posted By: Mamabear

Tubby - I hear your point about people who cast an informal vote as 'having their say'; but I dispute that perception. Informal votes don't send much of a message other than "I don't care" ... and no one does much with them. (except the electoral commission who examine every single informal ballot multiple times and record what type of ballot it was - blank, number in only one box, identifiers on the paper, penises drawn on paper...etc)

That may be the case when you force people to vote, they may be saying "I don't care" but that in itself is still a powerful message. Of course these votes won't get tallied up and the incoming government pobably won't find out the numbers of these votes and so won't find out the apathy that the electorate has for the electoral process.
Those votes in voluntary elections will also have no actual result on the politicians who are voted in, but it does show more protest for those who stood due to people taking time out and choosing to go and vote, even if it was a spoiled vote.

Tactical voting could be argued to be just as moot. Voting for 1 party just to stop another from getting in is not really in the spirit if the electoral process IMO. I can understand the reasons behind it though and bearing in mind the various ways that elections are tallied throughout the world could have a major effect on who makes the next government

[NoFakie 45]

Australia sounds like it has a pretty good voting system. As befitting the country that first gave women the vote. I would argue the massive problem, like elsewhere, is that the media is controlled by (insert C word) like Murdoch. The people can't use their votes properly because they are competely misinformed by a media who have reduced politics to soundbites and personalities. The politicians are too terrified or too paid off by lobbyists to take them on. The US is worst, and Obama is just as bad as the rest. There has been no "change" because it is a soundbite that people projected fantasies onto. It was never a set of specific policies.

 

Getting back to this campaign, the basic idea comes from a former African leader Julius Nyerere (can't remember country or spelling) who suggested that everyone in the world should be able to vote in the US elections because they affect everybody. Even taking it at face value, this campaign has an obvious flaw in that the UK has very little say in Afghanistan anyway. Some of our troops are there, but their only real purpose is to justify the US presence. The UK, Australia, and Japan basically all bend over backwards to appease the US. It's all for some "special relationship", again another soundbite that no-one is ever encouraged to think about.

[jared 0]

Slight correction there Mr Wiggles, that should be "...befitting the country that was the second to give women the vote..."

New Zealand gave woman the vote in 1893 while our slightly slow, but well loved big brother didn't get around to it till 1894.

 

 

[Go Native 70]

NZ is basically just a little state of Aus anyway Stag so it's only semantics

[mitchpee 10]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

Originally Posted By: MitchPee

True, but then again it undermines everything about the democratic political process. Ie, the ones who want to exercise their vote generally put a bit of thought into it. Rather than if you are coerced into voting, you may just make some random selection. While I realize most people don't do this, it still is an issue that could lead to the selection of the wrong candidate.

I don't agree it undermines the democratic process at all. Democracy is about the population making a choice who leads them. Forcing them to make a choice is in my opinion going to get the most representative vote of the entire populations will, not just the segment of the population who can be bothered turning up on polling day. It's not perfect and I certainly haven't always agreed with who gets in power but I don't think there is a much better way to get a higher percentage of people actively participating in the democratic process.

Well technically GN, a republic would be who we choose to lead (represent) us. A true democracy would be making decisions based off of popular vote. Irrelevant maybe, but taking no part in elections surely is an option of voting. It means you have no opinion or don't care to express your opinion which is a perfectly valid reason. It's very sad, but true. Whenever you "force" someone to do something you externalize their true wishes, for the most part.

[Go Native 70]

There are unfortunately many people who take no interest in the politics of their nation. A lot of people are quite happy to go through life without ever having to think about anything meaningful beyond say what pair of shoes should they wear out tonight. I like the idea of inconveniencing such people every now and then by making them go vote anyway

[HelperElfMissy 42]

But surely the people making the decisions about who best to run our country should be the ones who give a damn....

[Go Native 70]

There's just as many nutters out there though who give a damn as there are the average person. I mean look at the Family First party!! As I said earlier I reckon by getting everyone into the mix it helps to keep things more centered in Aus politics rather than being totally polarized choices of far left and right. It's only my opinion and I may be wrong. What do you reckon MB?

[HelperElfMissy 42]

As I said before GN....

I used to believe wholeheartedly in compulsory voting, but over 25 years of involvement in the electoral process (and with family involved in the political side) I have altered my opinion.

 

I think we would stop getting wishy washy results, and we would hold a government long enough for them to actually do something.

 

I have a lot of faith in the incumbent state government, and I have a fair bit of insider knowledge about the huge amount of work that is being done by the oft maligned pollies - those guys deserve a medal! They are working HUGE hours with dedicated passion, and they are constantly getting slagged off.

 

I am fully prepared to admit the error of my belief if we switched to voluntary voting, and it proved to be a mistake...but for now I reckon the time has come to make it no longer compulsory.

[Go Native 70]

How does the current system get wishy washy results though?

Frankly I think if voting was voluntary you would see minority interests getting much more of a say which wouldn't assist at all with creating long term stable governments.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Maybe I am just a bit jaded with the current system GN, but I always end up perilously close (metaphorically speaking) to putting a gun in my mouth at the raw stupidity of electors.

 

Family and friends who would choose to stay home if they were not obliged to vote, who have no real clue as to what their vote really means. Or what vote they are actually casting.

 

Seat by seat out of the major two, there is often a reversal of the person in front after preferences. So many times I have talked to people post election who are bitching about the party/member who won - who state that they really didn't want them in...they would have preferred the other guy...but upon questioning they voted for a minor party whose preferences were directed to the person they are groaning about. So the reality is THAT person voted for the sitting member. Their response - nah ah...I never vote (insert political party name). Umm yah-ah! Due to following the 'party line' in preferences you absolutely did!

 

This is what I mean by wishy washy.

The end result I doubt is a true reflection in all seats of voter desire. Some yes, maybe even many ... but a lot of elections these days are won and lost on one or two seats.

 

Also what about the vast number of permanent residents that live here and plan to live here for a really long time who are not entitled to vote also. Similar situation to yourself GN! I have talked to a lot of these people who know MASSES about the electoral system and what is on offer and WANT to vote. But cant...

[Go Native 70]

Yes Australia is full of a lot of completely brain dead morons and I'm sure WA has more than it's fair share as it's basically just a pioneering outpost full of rednecks, fisherman and miners. Maybe if you had experience in the more civilised eastern states you wouldn't be so jaded MB!

[2pints-mate 0]

Just want tosay thanks for taking the thread and moving it on, interesting read.