yamayamayama 2 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Quote: I hear and understand your point YYY, but it is not knowledge that caused this - it was lack of knowledge. Well, more like it was incorrect information that caused it along with not wanting to input incorrect information. Were you not though in your comments talking about 'information being power and something that you cannot get too much of'? 'Knowledge' is of course a different thing. Quote: Using the internet discerningly is very important Well it is extremely easy to say that isn't it..... Quote: I would rather know and understand my illness inside and out - good and bad - than take the bare minimal information that my doctor chose to impart. But how would you know what was correct? In your case? When a 'textbook' explanation is often totally irrelevant and sometimes totally incorrect? I would guess that far more 'information' out there on any subject is incorrect than correct - and would guess with everyone being an expert that will only increase. You could end up being totally obsessed in the endless search of information that is not relevant to you while at the same time loading your brain with uncertainties, misinformation and basically worry and stress. That is certainly not going to help. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 YYY, I hear that this has caused your family pain, and I feel awfully for you guys - but so many times I have seen the medical fraternity be fallable....it is good to question, it is good to search for answers to your own reality. Another example: My youngest son had a funny shaped head as a newborn, that continued to look more and more pronounced rather than settle down as most 'cone head' babies did. GPs, Clinic Nurses - all told me nothing to worry about/deviation within normal range - no need for the referral I was asking for. By the time I demanded a referral the specialist asked me why I had waited so long to bring the baby to him.... Specialists solution was to bring him back in 6 weeks for a long appt and get the ball rolling on fitting him with a halo screwed into his skull to basically act like braces and move the bones to where they should be. I questioned. I searched. I tried alternatives (while still keeping that specialists appointment.) We tried some rather alternative and freaky treatments involving a number of eastern medicine techniques and network chiropractics and after 6 weeks the specialist was shocked and thrilled to see massive improvements. So much so he closed the file and recommended we keep doing what we were doing. That little boy is now almost 10years old and has a perfectly shaped head - he still has a bruise that developed slightly off centre between his eyes during one of those treatment sessions - but we did not have to have his skull drilled into. When you seek information and question and discover then that information becomes knowledge. And that knowledge gives you the power to walk your own path. That is empowering. And even if there is a poor prognosis it is easier to deal with when you are empowered and chosing the path you walk, rather than simply following the instructions of others without clear understanding, or feeling like it is beyond your control. Link to post Share on other sites
yamayamayama 2 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 What you are saying sounds very 'ideal', doesn't it. Not everyone wants to become totally consumed by a research quest - and totally consumer is what it would do in terms of time and emotional energy. In my relatives case, they decided that they wanted to get on with their lives as normally as possible without cluttering their brains with the inevitable misinformation that they would inevitably consume in some quest for 'the truth'. They are much more at peace with the way they have chosen. They are not just talking to one doctor, but a whole army of them (it seems). Each doctor and specialist had told them basically the same - that with the illness she has it is impossible to go online and find an answer, because an answer does not exist. 100 people and the illness will be different in each case. They do question and ask for differing opinions. But you can just scare and stress yourself silly reading stuff that is meaningless. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I'm a great believer in the scientific method and a fairly rabid skeptic. I don't believe in anything supernatural, including any god. I don't believe in fate or any possibility that people can divine the future. One of the worst things you could ever ask me (and then expect me to continue talking to you) is 'what star sign are you?' or for the ignoramuses here in Japan 'what blood type are you?'. I'm also extremely skeptical of most eastern 'medicines'. You can find a plethora of studies out there (where there have actually been some real clinical trials) which basically show that most eastern medicines do very little more than a placebo would and with the controls on what actually goes into some of these medicines you'd probably be a lot better off having the placebo. In never ceases to amaze me though just what some people will believe in even when there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support their beliefs. I feel much of these beliefs come about from lack of education and ignorance and that education is incredibly important to rid this world of the last vestiges of such medieval beliefs, hell it's the 21st century for gods sake! Although I don't hold out too much hope that we can get rid of religion anytime soon because I've known plenty of very educated and intelligent people who still believe in God. At least I can have intelligent debates with them about it. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Interesting points being raised here, I want to comment. Information is not power when one relies on information. i.e) put yourself in a situation where you have no access to information. Or, the information you can get is basically alien to your belief. Whether science based or religion based or culture based. One may hear the truth but won't hear it. There is no education in finding out what is right or not, how to sort out all the trivial information. We don't want to make judgement, but situation demands we do. This will be experience, and out of your choice, and the outcome is not always the same. No one can teach INTUITION. The idiotic belief that all information is out there and most of them can be found on the WEB. dot.edu sites in general is more reliable to others, but it might have its own agenda. Information can be a distraction in finding out the truth. What is the truth? You are all on your path for that Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 The internet is certainly a minefield of misinformation and untruths. There is no quality control on the internet... That's where a quality education can help you to clear the chaff from the corn. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Many individuals display a classic example of the fallacy of the religion of science. Science can only be defined as an attitude to be open to all possibilities. The truths is unknown. What is true might just be a local phenomena. You will get what you will seek but maybe blind to what you filter out. Link to post Share on other sites
yamayamayama 2 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Go Native The internet is certainly a minefield of misinformation and untruths. There is no quality control on the internet... That's where a quality education can help you to clear the chaff from the corn. Definitely. But unfortunately the highest quality education can't guarantee your ability to do that clearing. And in the process of doing that clearing, the memory of the chaff or possible chaff gets imprinted into the memory and lingers. If only the human brain could have a selective delete function! Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Question Authority Question education, and everything you have learnt Question your own individuality and what you call yourself I Question why you question .. When you get all the background chatter out you might find an answer... Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 LOL. Not ALL answers can be found on the web, but it is a darn sight quicker to look up facts than a trot down to the library. Some Alternative medicines are more effective than western medicines. I tried antibiotics for my 2nd childs repeated ear infections - it simply gave him thrush, settled the infection and it came right back - compromising his hearing. Ear Candles on a regular basis solved the problem without causing him any harm. Does it look funny - my oath it does - but if it doesnt harm and might help - why not give it a go. I tend to question things - rather than just accept - so I did struggle with the treatments my boy received for his head, but it was no placebo effect. The result was markedly better than could have been achieved by him wearing the halo for 6 months. My Eldest son had signifigant reduction in his asthma symptoms after a Network Spinal Analysis Chiro adjustment from the same people - after about a year his asthma would worsen until he had another adjustment - then he would be good again... I would be an idiot if I rejected these things out of hand, because they have worked for my family - really worked. If it doesnt work for you - no problem. Intuition - yep...agreed. But intuition may well be the ability of people to recognise non verbal cues better than others... Education and being open to learning new things all the time - - Im all for it! Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Aw man, you guys are getting all deep again.... Figures, Jynxx would get in on this one Anyway, school is just practical. You may or may not learn anything about life in school and not everybody needs it but if you're teaching English in Japan, a masters in applied linguistics makes the difference between being a lowly ALT in junior high (I can say that because I was one and I know the deal) and having a tenured uni job. There are lots of people around us who have been hustling for far too long with pretty much fixed salaries and now they're almost middle aged and don't know what to do with their lives. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Cheers mate ! you are not wrong there, I had a teaching position in 1979 at ECC foreign language Institute, was one of the big private schools. I had no degree what so ever, Most of the kids where like me who had ben educated overseas and we were paid Y2300 per hour. Guess what, pay for teaching english hasn't gone up that much ! Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Of course, if you open the curtain every morning to look at 2-3000 meter peaks and 30cm of fresh snow on the ground then I don't think you'd need much more. Link to post Share on other sites
JA2340 16 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Simply put, you cannot equate "education" in a general sense with "Examination success". Education is much more than just success at an exam. Exam success is simply the ability to regurgitate facts learned OR to extrapolate from facts to possible future events OR to adapt facts to new scenarios. Even at Teacher's College, there was a sense of disconnect between the cr@p we were expected to learn for the exam and the stuff we were expected to show in our practicum. As for the dilemma of yamayamayama's relative, I can see the difficulty with the information available. The problem revolves around getting to separate the cr@p from the fact. In that respect, you need to have recourse to some "education" in factual recognition and how to sort out the cr@p from the facts. The scientific mnethoid comes into its own at that point. The ability to discern the provable facts from the dross. Take a story I saw tonight on TV regarding "wrinkle removal" creams. Fact is that there are plenty of them around and they range in price from AUD50 to AUD250 with minimal difference in effect. And the only claims they can legally make is that they "reduce the visible effects of aging". You'd need a degree in cellular physics to be able to discern the difference. Link to post Share on other sites
yamayamayama 2 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Originally Posted By: JA As for the dilemma of yamayamayama's relative, I can see the difficulty with the information available. The problem revolves around getting to separate the cr@p from the fact. In that respect, you need to have recourse to some "education" in factual recognition and how to sort out the cr@p from the facts. The scientific mnethoid comes into its own at that point. The ability to discern the provable facts from the dross. Well it's good to see that everyone is so expert at doing this and obviously more intelligent enabling them to know exactly what is fact and what isn't. And also being intelligent enough to work out what might be relevant and what not. I presume better at selectively forgetting things that they don't want to remember. I will tell my relative that the experts and more intelligent people tell her she is obviously just a dumb chick, that might make her feel better. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Interesting to note JA that some schools are now teaching less 'facts' and more 'how to find the information you require from the swirling ocean of facts that slaps you across the face when you go looking.' Some facts are well worth being taught - however as the world is ever changing, being able to adapt, improvise and overcome is a fabulous skill to be taught. I saw that report on wrinkle creams too. My 2c worth is that it is no good if a cream is 'proven' to reduce wrinkles if it makes you itch, or gives you breakouts, or if you cant stand the smell. Most consumers use these products because they feel the need to use a moisturiser (to prevent tight dry skin), look for one with an spf factor (to protect thier skin from the sun), and anything else is a bonus. When you find one you like you tend to stick to it. The majority of us realise there is no such thing as a miracle cure for getting older. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 let's not get confused with qualifications and education. Education is a life long thing. Link to post Share on other sites
grungy-gonads 54 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 And information different still. Link to post Share on other sites
Mantas 3 Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Originally Posted By: thursday let's not get confused with qualifications and education. Education is a life long thing. That's right thurs but I would think that most people's idea of being 'educated' means you have some qualifications from an institution. Maybe they should replace the word 'educated' with "programmed'. "He was programmed at Oxford don't you know" Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I wish my daddy had the money and foresight to send me to Yale. I'd be a great locksmith now. Link to post Share on other sites
Mantas 3 Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 And while we are bashing the elite. Can someone explain to me the advantage of sending your child to a private school, other than making sure that they mix with the 'right' crowd? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Depends on your definition of the 'right' crowd I guess. I went to a fairly exclusive private school and really didn't like it, really just didn't get along. Wasn't helped that I came from the western suburbs and my Dad didn't have a lamborghini. Finished my last couple of years of secondary school at another private school in the western suburbs which was considerably better. I think on the whole private schools can offer more than is generally available at public schools but that said there are some great public schools out there (normally in affluent suburbs). Link to post Share on other sites
Mantas 3 Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Everyone I know that went through the private education system has done quite well for themselves but it had bugger all to do with a superior education and everything to do with family connections. I'm also aware that not everyone that sends their child to a private schools is wealthy and I'm sure they have the best intentions for their child. I just question their reasons for doing so. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 My parents simply thought I'd get a better education. Neither of them made it past year 10. They worked hard in their own business and had the money to send me to one of the most expensive schools around. My sister also didn't finish high school but is now a regional sales manager who earns a big 6 figure salary. My experience associated with some of the richest kids and families in the country actually ended up making me dislike the whole idea of being rich and from a young age I vowed to never grow up to be like them. Think I succeeded Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 We send our boys to a Private School, and the reasons are simple. Our children were in a government system that failed them from day one. They were bright children (particularly the first) who sat bored to death in class day in and day out. The bullying he endured because he was the class 'brainiac' was beyond belief. The teachers were bigotted bullies as well (with a few glorious exception). It took 3 years to get a place in a private school (and at that point we did not care which one - we just wanted OUT of the public system. Our kids have done WAY better in the private system, admittedly we landed on our feet and got a place in a school with a fabulous all round education philosophy (with one or two minor hiccups along the way - the exact converse to what we had in the state system). Sad thing is our two eldest had already developed a hatred of structured learning, and continue to be a <groan> I hate homework <groan> I wish I was out of school <groan> I hate the uniform why cant I go to the public high school with the girls ;)kind of bunch. Our two youngest have done all thier formal schooling at this fine private school (one from yr 1, the other from Pre-Primary) - and thier attitude is totally different. Instead we get ... Mum can I stay after school for 'after school art', 'Have you got a shoe box I want to make a diorama and take it in for news', 'I got put up into the top maths group - I am so happy - I worked really hard and now I get to do challenging maths!" Such a difference. Those two have not had the love of learning squashed out of them. Co-curricular stuff is better too. Snowboarding trip to NZ, Ski trip for primary kids to Hotham, Art tour of the Louvre, Japanese Students do a cultural tour of Japan and short term exchange programme etc etc. Yr 10 boys must do community service for the 2nd half of Friday every week - my two older boys read to and played games with nursing home residents who eagerly awaited thier arrival each week. Opportunities for wider community service - 2nd son went to Nepal on a Pilgrimage of Hope just last year - worked his butt off for the Nepali people and learnt a lot about himself in the process. Peer mentoring: Tutorial groups in highschool consist of a few students from each year - and they stay with that tutor/tute group through out. This is thier adult mentor and guide and the link to home. The year 12's help the younger kids to adjust, and they answer those questions that the younger boys want to ask 'someone' - you know - about girls and stuff... This system see's a huge reduction in bullying. Just my experience. I know some do it for the toss value. Some do it in desperation that thier kids have social networking that can be advantageous in the future. Others do it to sort out problem kids. But most just want to give thier kids the best opportunities that they can afford. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts