Religion is the root of all evil

[me jane 0]

Idea for this topic came from Misorano's signature,

"In the world there are good people and bad people. Religion makes good people bad."

 

I'm not religious and certainly religion causes a lot of problems in the world but it also helps and comforts many more. There would still be crime, wars and persecution even if there was no religion.

[Rag-Doll 0]

Greed, selfishness, ignorance, superstition, arrogance, stupidity, our predilection for tribalism and probably some other similar things are the root of all evil. Perhaps also the willingness/ability to regard others as being inferior or separate from us.

 

It's the manipulation of the above and people's beliefs (be it religious or secular) by some and the willingness of others to be manipulated that causes problems. Religion seems to lend itself to being used in this context but other means of establishing an us and them paradigm also crop up now and then such as skin color, ancestory, geographic origins, sporting club affiliations, income, occupation, etc.

 

Rather than playing national anthems at schools and sporting events perhaps people should be required to recite Donne’s work:

 

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."

[misorano 1]

Me Jane:

Many people think morality comes from religion, but I prefer to think it is part of human nature, as are all the points Rag-Dolls lists, as well as compassion, hope, love, devotion, compromise....

 

Religion has been a nessessary tool of the last 2000years as a means to explain the universe. We are beyond that now, as science has given us evolution (among others)as a means to explain how we go to this point.

 

The quote in the sig. (though not exact) comes from Steinberg I think. I think it means that there are always going to be good people and bad people (genetics/up bringing), but religion has the power to make otherwise good people do bad things.

 

The other thing that scares me is the total conviction the religious have (any religion) that they are 100% right, and a justified doing evil things in god's name.

[bushpig 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by misorano:

Religion has been a nessessary tool of the last 2000years as a means to explain the universe. We are beyond that now, as science has given us evolution (among others)as a means to explain how we go to this point.

The quote in the sig. (though not exact) comes from Steinberg I think. I think it means that there are always going to be good people and bad people (genetics/up bringing), but religion has the power to make otherwise good people do bad things.

Miso, religion can also have the power to make bad people do good things. It is not a one way single effect. Many people have found religion (whatever it may be) and have been greatly helped by it in terms of getting out of really shitty situations. It goes two ways, as with anything that requires us to look into ourselves a bit more. Undoubtedly religion is often misused by those who want power, but those people are not really understanding the heart of the religion they claim to represent.

Also, the idea of evolution is not one that is necessarily incompatible with religion (Christianity). Francis Collins is one of the most repsected figure in the scientific community, having won a nobel prize for his work on mapping the human genome. He is a firm believer in evolution and is also a firm believer in Chrisitanity. I'm only trying to point out here, that the two don't have to be mutually exclusive as many (including creation science, intelligent design people, and many scientists) would have us believe.

[misorano 1]

BP: I'm not sure how Francis Collins justifies it, but the 2 (and I'm limiting this to Christianity, as I know bugger all about any other religion), are inherently mutally exclusive.

One follows the gradual development from single cell organisms to what we have to day, while the other claims the presence of a creator who is responsible for everything. I can't see how they can be compatible.

[bushpig 0]

Miso, the traditional christian view is as you say, but there are many christians who say that the old testament's creation story is a figuarative explanation given in a way that people could understand, but that the key idea is that there is a creator, and not that he made the earth in 7 days literally. Francis Collins, and many other christians believe that evolution can and does have a place with a creator at the beginning, to put it simply. The idea that he created us through a gradual evolution is no more far-fetched than the idea that he created us in 7 days. I'm not going to get into a religious debate here about the validity of christianity, I was just pointing out that many do not regard the 2 as mutaully exclusive, including the man behind the mapping of the human genome who is both a christian and an evolutionist, who is highly regarded in the scientific community.

[misorano 1]

I can understand their arugments about the absolute origins of the universe. It is the something out of nothing argument, which has no logical explanation as we know it.

 

However if there was one all powerful creator, he sure picked a funny way to start things off. Could have done a little better.

 

This is your fault anyway. I think it was you who put me on to torrents, and I've been downloading documentary after documentary ever since.

I'm now a 9/11 conspriacy theory buff and interested in religion.

[damian 0]

Religion makes potentially sensible people gather in churches and, with chants and prayers, literally offer up worship to intangible beings in thanks and in fear of their awe. Some of the more strange religions even drink make-beleive blood and eat make-beleive flesh as part of their bizarre ceremonies.

 

The Universe is utterly unknown to us, who knows what is going on out there. Even if there is a god of some type or another, why should it be worshipped and adored? Its a complete load of shit. If any of the non-existent gods are reading this forum then you know what I think.

 

Religion also serves as the most effective conduit for man's favourite and oldest hobby, that being killing each other. Religion is not the only conduit. Rag Doll expressed this quite well.

 

Religion is fundamentally flawed: it asks for tolerance of fellow man, yet adherence to a particular religion simultaneously excludes any possibility of tolerance of another religion. For example, I choose a religion that is not-christianity and therefore immediately dismiss the meaning or relevance of the gruesome death of that guy christians call christ. That he is proported to have died such a nasty slow death for my benefit is totally irrelevant as I don't follow a religion that even contains the word christ, nor the concept of a cross. So by choosing my not-christian religion I must totally ignore what so many christians hold so precious. In fact, I couldn't care less if, according to someone else's book, he apparently died for my sins. He is a non-entity in my perfectly acceptable not-christian religion. So whilst practising my religion as a good honest guy and keeping up the facade of tolerance I actually am brutally rejecting of what another religion holds so close and considers a fundamental given in their faith, a corner stone. Same goes for the biggest liar of all time: Mary the virgin. Another non-entity in the eyes of my not-christian religion. Now I hope no christians are offended... don't forget tolerance for your fellow man.

 

A book was suggested to me a few months ago and it asserts quite cleverly that suburban religious moderates in their naive subscription to the warm appeal of community based faith are in fact the most dangerous of all religious people.

 

Today I vent against religion and yesterday it was marketing. No mystery why they are equally unappealing to me: both manipulate the two psychological weaknesses common to all humans - hope and fear.

 

ps I love the way new age people reject religion and then go on to tell me about their tea leaves or star signs without realising that they are believing in an equally absurd structure of intangible fairy tales.

[misorano 1]

What was the book?

[longboardsk8man 0]

a good example of a very very twisted religion...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBrKmoIhFLQ

[daver 0]

you are all wrong, man's follies can be attributed to his opposable thumbs. as such i suppose you could say evolution is the root of all evil. however following that you could make an arguement that religion is the route of all evil.

[Rag-Doll 0]

I’m an atheist but religion fascinates me. I was going to post a comment about the seeming uselessness of prayer when I remembered that Voltaire had said something about it. Here is a list of some of his quotes from wiki that lampoons human nature and the nature of faith. Some of the others I’ve included because I liked them and deleted others that I found incomprehensible.

• Paradise is where I am.

• To hold a pen is to be at war.

• It is one of the superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that virginity could be a virtue.

• To pray to God is to flatter oneself that with words one can alter nature.

• We all look for happiness, but without knowing where to find it: like drunkards who look for their house, knowing dimly that they have one.

• If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor.

• It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong.

• Do not most of us resemble that old general of ninety who, having come upon some young officers debauching some girls, said to them angrily: "Gentlemen, is that the example I give you?"

• Such then is the human condition, that to wish greatness for one's country is to wish harm to one's neighbors.

• Christianity is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world.

• Your Majesty will do the human race an eternal service by extirpating this infamous superstition, I do not say among the rabble, who are not worthy of being enlightened and who are apt for every yoke; I say among honest people, among men who think, among those who wish to think. … My one regret in dying is that I cannot aid you in this noble enterprise, the finest and most respectable which the human mind can point out.

• Where is the prince sufficiently educated to know that for seventeen hundred years the Christian sect has done nothing but harm?

• I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous!" And God granted it.

• It is said that God is always on the side of the big battalions.

• Thought depends largely on the stomach. In spite of this, those with the best stomachs are not always the best thinkers.

• If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.

• Money is always to be found when men are to be sent to the frontiers to be destroyed: when the object is to preserve them, it is no longer so.

• Virtue supposes liberty, as the carrying of a burden supposes active force. Under coercion there is no virtue, and without virtue there is no religion. Make a slave of me, and I shall be no better for it. Even the sovereign has no right to use coercion to lead men to religion, which by its nature supposes choice and liberty. My thought is no more subject to authority than is sickness or health.

• It requires twenty years for a man to rise from the vegetable state in which he is within his mother's womb, and from the pure animal state which is the lot of his early childhood, to the state when the maturity of reason begins to appear. It has required thirty centuries to learn a little about his structure. It would need eternity to learn something about his soul. It takes an instant to kill him.

• In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other.

• Nothing is so common as to imitate one's enemies, and to use their weapons.

• The Eternal has his designs from all eternity. If prayer is in accord with his immutable wishes, it is quite useless to ask of him what he has resolved to do. If one prays to him to do the contrary of what he has resolved, it is praying that he be weak, frivolous, inconstant; it is believing that he is thus, it is to mock him. Either you ask him a just thing, in which case he must do it, the thing being done without your praying to him for it, and so to entreat him is then to distrust him; or the thing is unjust, and then you insult him. You are worthy or unworthy of the grace you implore: if worthy, he knows it better than you; if unworthy, you commit another crime by requesting what is undeserved.

In a word, we only pray to God because we have made him in our image. We treat him like a pasha, like a sultan whom one may provoke or appease.

• It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.

• I am very fond of truth, but not at all of martyrdom.

• I die adoring God, loving my friends, not hating my enemies, and detesting superstition.

• Let the punishments of criminals be useful. A hanged man is good for nothing; a man condemned to public works still serves the country, and is a living lesson.

• Let us read, and let us dance; these two amusements will never do any harm to the world.

• The public is a ferocious beast: one must chain it up or flee from it.

• Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.

• The man who leaves money to charity in his will is only giving away what no longer belongs to him.

[soubriquet 0]

I had a very interesting discussion with a group of Berbers in a mountain village in Morocco. It went along the lines:

 

Them "..Do you believe Christ was the son of God?"

Me "No."

Them. Sighs and smiles and relaxation all round.

 

I was very happy because I was enjoying the hospitality of these fine people. I'm glad it didn't occur to them to ask whether I believed in God. There is no God, therefore he cannot have a son.

[daver 0]

getting just a little further from the thred topic:

 

'"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

 

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

 

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.'

 

 

i suppose the same arguement could be made about intellegent design.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by misorano:
What was the book?

A good book that irritated the pants of me because I saw so much reality in it. He says nothing new, but says it in a very effective manner. Many argue his book has room for improvement and his arguments in some areas are flawed, and I see their point. Either way I am glad that someone sent me a mail and suggested it to me.

There are 592 reviews on amazon.com, more than enough for everyone to an opinion that supports their bias (cause that's what we all do when we scan reviews)

The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris

[misorano 1]

 Quote:

man's follies can be attributed to his opposable thumbs

Homer Simpson: Damn you opposable thumbs!

Opposable thumbs made masturbation possible, therefore masturbation is the root of all evil.

Opposable Thumbs -> Masturbation -> Wasted sacred sperm

[bushpig 0]

[misorano 1]

guess who had a few drinks between posts.

[bushpig 0]

Did you just edit that? I swear the first line was the only one on there before! in any case,

[kintaro 0]

Religion is a crutch. For whatever reason most people need something to believe in. When it get's fanatical it can be scary. But otherwise let's just let the religious go about their business without prejudice. You don't have to answer the door when the mormons or Jehova's come knocking. Tolerance is the key to stopping the fighting and killing in the name of religion. What an oximoron to call yourself 'religious' and fight or kill in the name of it!

[bushpig 0]

Well said Kintaro. I find it amusing how intolerant of religion some people are when one of their main accusations is intolerance.

[misorano 1]

Kintaro,

What bothers me is that many people are unwilling to have a frank discussion on religion. To state your opinion strongly makes you seem intolerant.

The issue has also become bigger then the mormons knocking on your door. The US has a religious zealot in the White House, who operates with the total conviction that his faith based decisions are best for all.

His oath of office was to uphold the constitution, but his term has seen the removal of some of the basic tenents of it.

I also believe the rise of evanglical christiainity in the US is equally as dangerous as the Islamic fundamentalists.

 

When groups scheme and plot to change the world order in the name of religion, should we be tolerant?

[Rag-Doll 0]

One of the many problems I have with religion is that faith denies critical enquiry. No matter how absurd the propositions or tenements on which the religion is based one must accept unquestioning whatever is proclaimed (by men) to be the word and will of god. The whole frame work is tailor made for the promotion of ignorance, superstition and the manipulation of the population for the benefit of the religion’s leaders.

[bushpig 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by misorano:
To state your opinion strongly makes you seem intolerant.

Surely that applies to both sides Miso??

I think it's worth keeping in mind, that for every loud, in-your-face, pusher of any religion (or non-religious ideology) there are thousands more who follow that faith (or ideology) who are NOT pushy or in-your-face about it at all. To label them all by the few who are outspoken, and say they represent the lot is not entirely fair.

I agree that someone like Bush is dangerous, but I would see his as an example of someone using misguided faith and a screwed up concept of his faith. Besides, I think it is his ideas on oil and the need to secure it which drive his policies more than anything else. He uses a lot of religious rhetoric to appeal to the large religious right in the US, which more than anythign makes him a smart politician. Australia's Howard did the same thing with the immigration issue to get himself re-elected. But it wasn't along religious lines, instead he pandered to the large section of closet racists in Australia. Smart politics. Not religion. People in politics play whatever cards they can to gain the votes. Unfortunately, Bush is using the religion card, and this tends to ruffle more feathers than most others.

[misorano 1]

Sure does. And I have no problem with anyone who has faith. It's what they do with it that scares me. The religous right is becoming and increasingly strong lobby group and exerting an undue influence on decision makers in the USA.

Combine this with a republican congress, and a cabinet just to left of Hitler, and we are up the creek.

One of the great things about the US was it's system of checks and balances. If a republican wins the next presidency, then the Supreme Court will also become a bit of a worry.

Scary shite indeeed.