Water content of snow

[secretskier 0]

I read this somewhere:

 

"Niseko's biggest draw is its dry power snow, with just 8% water content"

 

Is that particularly low? The number just doesn't mean much to me.

[bushpig 0]

isn't snow just frozen H20 anyway?

[gerard 6]

Here's a short explanation:

 

http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/encyclopedia/density_snow.htm

 

I've heard something like that about Niseko too. It's hard to assign a magic number because density depends on the temperature and where the storm is coming from.

[fb_steve 0]

I guess the best way to find out would be take a cubic meter of snow, melt it, then measure it.

[damian 0]

Some comparative measurement data would be interesting. Anecdotally I would believe a low average water content for mid-winter Niseko.

 

I think dry and light snow usually falls in continental ranges, and falls in smaller volumes. Niseko is close enough to the ocean to say it should have a maritime snow pack. And it certainly seems to get the high volume of snow normal to a maritime pack. Yet it gets the dryness of a continental pack. The best of both worlds? Without data, I am just guessing.

 

 

§§§ Please read this bit §§§

In the interests of science and a general love of the topic, I will personally sponsor some research for this winter. My offer is to BUY (including delivery) one of these things EACH for both Niseko, Hakuba and Yuzawa. Are there any responsible chaps in each location willing to take delivery of the apparatus and take regular measurements this winter according to a yet to be determined schedule and method? My only ask is that I get to own one of them when winter is out. It doesn't have to be those exact areas, alternate unique or representative regions in Japan's winter sports domain would also be interesting, so other willing responsible participants should nominate themselves. Perhaps we could use the avalanche and back country part of the forum to record and discuss the measurements.

http://www.wasatchtouring.com/store/densitygauge.html

 

 

On a related topic. Extremely light and dry snow doesn't stick to slopes very well.

 

Niseko doesn't have that problem

[damian 0]

This is an alternative measuremnet instrument, a little more expensive but I hear it is easier to use and has the added benefit of looking like a penis pump.

See the basic 12 inch kit:

http://www.snowmetrics.com/sb_home.php

[chop 0]

Hey Spud, http://www.snowmetrics.com. good website with all the good gear, nice one! Have just started my Level 2, will spread the word with the class.

[damian 0]

No probs chop.

 

Which Level 2 are you doing (that is, what education orginisation? CAA, AIARE etc). And where are you doing it in Japan?

[soubriquet 0]

$115 is a lot of money for a spring balance and an open ended tube. A fishing shop and the local hardware store could provide this for about $5. Density = mass/volume. The volume of a cylinder is (Pi*R^2) * length. Keep it metric, keep it simple.

[chop 0]

Le spud, i am doing my level 2 with the New Zealand Mountain Safety Council, or better known as N.Z avalanche assoc, they structure the course over 12 months which is excellent.I have just done 3 week in Wanka,NZ covering the first 3 units so all is good so far.I will spend the coming winter in the field getting my quota of "logged" days.

[damian 0]

Corblimey, sorry for offering. And the cheap on is ‘only’ $80

 

Soub - serious question. At my expense would you be prepared to assemble, test and calibrate three snow density measurement scales per your description? Then distribute to the dudes interested in measuring? In fact, your area would be good for measurement as well.

 

The fish weighing scales would have to be lightweight sensitive scales.

 

This would be a really interesting exercise. Each day it snows more than Xcm everyone gets outside for 1 minute whilst it is still fresh and takes a measurement. Then we can keep results on the forum and in a spread sheet. As each region got a dump we could comment on the water density and weather conditions. This is interesting from the perspective of fun, ‘cause dry snow is fun. Also from the perspective of regional comparison and a bit of geeky shit stirring, like teasing Hakuba for getting a 15% water dump. Finally it will be good for education regarding avalanches and enriching for SJ.com in that it is direct participation in measuring and understand our (your) snow environment in cross section along Japan.

 

Chop – I might drop you a pm about that.

[NoFakie 45]

I's linked to this before, but here is the lowdown from the Kanazawa massive.

 

http://www.city.kanazawa.ishikawa.jp/douken/HP/1-1-2/1-1-2.html

 

Look at the table at the bottom. It says five to eight for Hokkaido. Some strange modesty from Nisiko claiming eight there, or maybe only Furano further inland gets the good stuff. Along with melons.

 

Wanka NZ? Is that Birmingham's sister city?

[bushpig 0]

Mr Wiggles, I was gonna make a comment but you beat me to it!

[soubriquet 0]

"Corblimey, sorry for offering. And the cheap on is ‘only’ $80"

 

Sorry spud. I am cheap. I can live on my income, but flying my boys here and paying for their skiing comes out of my tiny capital, so saving $80 is important for me.

 

I'll certainly look into it. If I can source a spring balance with the appropriate range and sensitivity, I can do it no problem. Does this kit need to be packed up the mountain?

[damian 0]

There is coming a time in my life when $100 will be a weeks income, so I am with you on economising.

 

Not sure about how portable/packable the devise has to be.

 

a) It makes sense to measure the snow where people ride - so pack it up the mountain.

 

But

 

It makes sense to make the measurements easy to take, and that's out your front door down in the valley. So no need to pack the devise further than your back yard. We also want data on every fresh dump, and the measurement person may not be up the mountain or every fresh fall.

 

Option B is the best bet to allow no hassle data gathering. The readings will not represent the summit snow quality. But it will still be representative of the region.

 

Still no takers for the role of measuring though....

 

Its easy: you fill the tube with fresh snow from the surface and weigh it using the special scales. Then email or post the weight on the forum. That's it. Do that each time it snows more than 5cm in in dump

 

We need people who live in the snow, at about the same altitude as the bottom lift station. It doesn't matter if you live in a town. I can think of plenty. Common... get involved. Be part of the first gaijin nation wide snow density measurement exercise. It will b fun and also give you some pretty unique conversational abilities next time you speak with an avalanche professional.

 

Even if data has already been gathered (see MrW's Japanese link) it doesnt mean we wouldnt benefit from gathering our own data.

[soubriquet 0]

I'd be happy to collect and post some data. Let's see what I can come up with in terms of kit. The core tube is easy. An appropriate length of UPVC plumbing tube will do the business. I checked out the fishing section of my local hardware store and the only scales they had measured to 11kg. What I need is 500g to 1kg max. I found one on sale in the UK for 10 quid. I'm sure something similar is available here.

[damian 0]

Cool progress.

 

Even 500gm might be too bulky? We aren't dealing with half a litre of water.

 

The UPVC tube would have to be thin-walled and straight, with parallel sides, to allow much easier 'filling' of the tube with snow.

 

An alternate thought: perhaps using a known volume collection vessel and measuring flask, we could go for the collect-and-melt option, since observations are not collected in the field (you just take the collected snow back inside and melt it at room temperature, then measure the water volume.

[soubriquet 0]

That's the weight of snow plus the container. If we`re dealing with mass, the trick is to collect a relatively large volume of snow relative to the mass of the sampling tube, to minimise error. An alternative is to take the sample then transfer it into something of negligable mass, like a plastic bag, before weighing.

 

Melting and measuring volume is a very inexpensive alternative.

[damian 0]

>> If we`re dealing with mass, the trick is to collect a relatively large volume of snow relative to the mass of the sampling tube, to minimise error.

 

of course, makes sense now I read it.

[soubriquet 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by le spud:
In the interests of science and a general love of the topic, I will personally sponsor some research for this winter. My offer is to BUY (including delivery) one of these things EACH for both Niseko, Hakuba and Yuzawa. Are there any responsible chaps in each location willing to take delivery of the apparatus and take regular measurements this winter according to a yet to be determined schedule and method?
http://www.wasatchtouring.com/store/densitygauge.html

This is the better of the two instruments. It is not beautiful, but has greatest sensitivity in the (more interesting) lower density range. Also, the short length, large diameter sampling tube should give less sampling error than the long narrow tube.

I'll be in it spud. You supply one of these, and I'll log and post the data.

[damian 0]

Cool, thanks Soub. I am genuinely interested in supporting and motivating the data gathering and analysis, even if I cant be there in person. But that’s the beauty of the internet (besides talking with authority about Hawaii, OT). I’ll arrange for one of these to be sent to your door, you have my word on that. If we end up needing more than one (as hoped) then will get them all shipped to Japan at the same time to save on postage.

 

Any other takers? Two more samplers would be good to give some cross section. Montoya in Yuzawa, FT, EBC in Hakkuba, someone in Niseko (who posts here and lives there?), or Hokkaido. Or Kuma in titty-yama? Anyone else in diversified areas prepared to take a measurement each time it snows a few inches?

 

By the way, I had the same thought about the wide and shallow collection thing leading to less error than the long narrow tube.

 

Ps – these snow density gauges are also sold in Australia, for any guys down there planning an extended period in the snow.

http://www.patrolquip.com.au/productshopshow.php?itemid=83

[soubriquet 0]

This is one for the English teachers. Make it a class activity, along with keeping a weather station.