damian 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I am becoming gear junky. Next stop: back country snowboard back packs. I have used an Osprey 25+5. It is a great pack to have on your back, but it is poorly designed in the area of board attachment. It only has two straps and I am convinced that boards need three straps. The secret to good board attachment is that you should do the top two straps quite tight and leave the bottom strap quite loose, but firm enough to steady the board laterally. This means that the tail of the board is on a slight outward sloping angle as it runs down your back: the nose is closer to your head (due to tight top straps) and the tail is angled out from your bum. The benefit here is that the nose stays nice and close to your centre of gravity, thus being much more efficient to carry as it doesn't swing around. Secondly, the tail is angled away from your bum and so never catches on your snow shoes. This can be an issue especially when walking down hill. Over all, it gives more freedom to move your legs around. I have done at least 25, 2-3 hour hikes with this pack and conclude that it just isn't specifically tailored for snowboard attachment. The straps often don't even hold the board firmly unless the pack is more than half full. The Osprey 25+5 also has useless ski attach points that add to the clutter and weight of the pack. In short: good for skiers and split boarders, sub optimal for snow shoe touring. I have a very basic out of production low-volume BC day pack by Sessions. It has three excellent board straps. They made a fantastic pack. Problem is it doesn't hold very much food or supplies and is not very weather resistant at all. I have done about 10 light 1-2 hour tours with this pack and in terms of board carrying the performance is superior, even though it has absolutely no ergonomic design features. Any suggestions for a 20-30 litre pack that has three board attach straps? Link to post Share on other sites
Kumapix 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 ahhhh, you just made me rethink my intention to get the osprey. I made the mistake of ordering the burton ak paradise without seeing it first and was a bit disappointed, so I was looking at the Osprey for next year. Actually, next year's Burton line has completely changed so you might want to wait til August to see if they've improved. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 It is a good pack, just the board strap on system is poor. Another consideration they should address: the board attach straps should pull tighten on both the male and fem,ale sides of the clips. Alas this is not the case. To tighten the board straps you pull on only one side. There is no loose tail on the other side of the clip. The result: an uneven/asymmetrical strap tightening mechanism that makes it hard to get a firm and 'middled' board attachment. The above mentioned Sessions pack has feature and it pays off. The people that design these packs seem to have never actually gone into the back country with a board attached to their back. This is a common observation. For example, it applies to every pack that can't be opened unless you undo the board straps first! Yes, known companies actually make such short-sighted packs. At least the Osprey pack gets this right. Next weekend I will post a pic of my Session's pack strapping system. A serious pack maker needs to copy this design. Link to post Share on other sites
Kumapix 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I wish that makers would show pictures of the packs fully kitted out so that you can visualize better how to fit everything in. Also maybe a list of compatible products. ie, in this pack you can fit the following shovels: etc One pack I have has space for a shovel, the shovel handle is sketchy, and absolutely no place for a probe! Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 I agree. There is so much rubbish out there. Buying a pack from a website without trying on isn't such a great idea though as there is no way to tell if the pack's size and shape suits your body's. I wish pack makers would drop all the gimmicks and focus on what the pack is designed to do! Steer clear of packs that brag about quick access shovel handle and probe holders on the pack exterior. That kind of gear belongs in your pack where it can't get torn off in a big fall. But so many guys like to parade around with "BC gear" on display by being strapped to the exterior of their packs. Silly silly silly. Just like the clowns you see cruising around with loose low slung harness rather than having them done up nice and dorky and tight so that they are ready to do the job for which they are designed should the urgent and threatening need arise. I am going to start my own BC snowboard only brand. A brand where cool is forgotten and functionality and purpose is remembered. Back to the topic: Here is a good 3 strap pack. A little small. But ok.... until you realise that there is no back panel acces zip! You have to unclip your board to access the interior. Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Have you seen the new line from Deuter? I use the 30 lt pack and I am pretty happy with it. Although it doesn’t have 3 straps for the board, the ones it has can hold the board tight enough so that it doesn’t move around when you walk. I have noticed that the Osprey packs don’t hold the board tight enough so it moves around a lot when you walk. Me in the back with the Deuter and friends in front with Osprey. Notice that the boards on Osprey are tilted towards one side wile mine is vertical. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Hey Tsonda, good pics! I have been looking at the Deuter packs online, they are quite decent. Your friends board certainly highlights the lack of firm board strapping capabilities of the Osprey. People have been raving for so long about how technical and great the 25+5 Switch is, yet no one ever bothered to consider that strapping anything to the back is a sub-optimal experience. Infact, it is fails in that department and I am getting rid of mine as a result. I would like to physically handle the Deuter pack. It has a design aspect that looks odd. Can you tell me where the board straps actually attach to the pack? Is it near the back wall or is it at the base of those triangle pieces that appear to be sewn into the pack at the obvious seam? These images are not perfect, but do show a little of what I am talking about. Check out the wonky looking Osprey pack with the snow shoes. The alignment and integration/compactness is poor, and that is with shoes and poles, not a long heavy snowboard!. Exactly the same gear but showing three strap system on the Sessions pack ps - I don't strap snow shoes on the other way around as the teeth on the base of them very quickly cut into the straps, especially if you have a high friction crash on your back. By the way, that second pic was taken on the col which is at the base of the slope which unfortunately killed famous Scottish mountaineer Dougal Haston many many years ago. He died in an avalanche whilst skiing. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 First shot is at the col, not second shot Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 It is not very easy to explain about the straps. They are connected both at the triangles and the back of the pack. At both connection points you can adjust the length of the straps which is very good because: a)you can have the part of the strap between the back of the pack and the triangle base loose so that you don’t get your food crushed by the board wile hiking up, and the part between the triangles really tight so that the board doesn’t move around. c)you can tight the top part between the back of the pack and the triangle hard and the bottom have it loose, so that the board is tilted towards your head. Doing so you get the obvious benefits you explain in your first post. b)you can have both parts of the straps really tight to reduce the volume of the pack, so that you don’t have a bulky pack bouncing all around when in the trees. When I went to by a pack, the guy from Deuter was at the place for promotion reasons and explained me all about the functions of the pack. He said that although it looks strange, they actually bided it according to their needs when they are going BC skiing. So it was designed and tested by themselves last year in real conditions. Better have a close look somewhere that they have it on display. It has many features I can’t explain well. Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Also they have a net to strap your helmet with the board, the net hooks on 4 loops at the base of the triangles. I have my helmet strapped on the first pick, although you cant see it very well. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 hey cool, you understood my odd question and explained it very well, cheers. So long as the board straps do actually have an anchor close to the pack base then I am happy. It is a pity that it doesn't have 3 straps, but it seems almost none do these days. The second pic of yours is also revealing. It looks like your friend with the swallow tail is using a red Switch 25+5? Look how close the straps are, and how poorly the envelope the board, holding it centred and firm. I have also looked at the Dakine packs as some of them allow horizontal as well as vertical board attachment. This is handy for longer boards or using sleds. The BCA pack has some very bomber straps, but I believe that the bottom one is velcro and if you fall in freezing powder a lot then that velcro is going to loosen and clog, rendering it useless. Link to post Share on other sites
Kumapix 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 that's great info tsondaboy. How much did u get your deuter for? Link to post Share on other sites
Kumapix 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 spud here's a link to a japanese site with pics of how to use the deuter: http://www.largo99.com/store/backcountry/pack/deuter/ Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 I have a 25+5 osprey that has had a lot of use. You can create a third board strap by modifying (joining) the the two top ski straps that are located on the side of the pack. The other trick with the pack and probably a lot of others is to place the bottom strap below the bottom binding on the board - Tsonda's mate in the first photo seems to be doing that. It keeps the board high and away from the back of your legs. The modified ski straps help stablise the top/nose of the board. The guy with the swollow tail in the photo hasn't done this and it looks like he has had to use the compression buckle to get the straps tight enough - hence the board isn't straight or very secure. Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Cool site that one kumapix, I have been to that shop (largo) once. I think I got my Deuter for 16000 yen at ICI Shijuku, but that was on a promotion day with the guys from Deuter present. I think it is around 17000 lately. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Quote: Originally posted by Rag-Doll: I have a 25+5 osprey that has had a lot of use. You can create a third board strap by modifying (joining) the the two top ski straps that are located on the side of the pack. Yeah, I use that strap to add some hold, but it isn't designed for that purpose and does a poor job of staying securely tightened, and is hard to tighten anyway due to the twisting of the strap and the often bad position of the slide buckle. But it is better than nothing, which is hardly a marketing slogan for Osprey! "your board can be attached using a strap which is better than nothing". My Osprey Switch 25+5 is going in the cupboard until such time that I do not carry my board or snow shoes on my back. There is justified love affair with Osprey from a pack perspective, but no one questions their design flaws in board and snow shoes attachment, particularly when the pack is only half full. My simple 6,000yen sessions day pack kicks the fancy Osprey arse when it comes to secure and practical external gear attachment. Kuma - those pictures are pretty good! Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites
Kumapix 0 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 well, I ended up getting the osprey 40+5 and I love it. I wanted 40l and the deuter edge only goes to 30...plus the osprey was on sale! I've only used it once so far and it was awesome (compared to what I've been using). I also have a burton ak paradise and a burton zoom, but their hip belt placement is too high for me. It makes a big difference. The osprey is totally adjustable so that you get a pack that actually fits you properly! Regarding the loose board straps complaint...well I just had the pack half full and used the compression straps, and had no problems. I can foresee movement of the board if I have a full pack going. but right now, for me, the hip belt makes up for any energy loss from board movement. Carrying snowshoes was no problem at all. Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 At which shop did you got it on sale? I plan to go for the MSR lightings next week, and hope to get some better deal. Do be honest, I almost bought an Osprey because I liked the design of it better than the Deuters. I finally ended up buying the Deuter because it fitted my back a bit better than the Ospery. Link to post Share on other sites
Kumapix 0 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 i got it for 16800 at Rapies in Hakuba. You should check the lightnings there since lots of stuff is on sale. also check backcountrystore.com I was watching that site for a while but when the lightnings went on sale (187 usd) the shipping went up! I ended up with just 20% from my shop in toyama for the evo ascents Link to post Share on other sites
marnix 0 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 In Tokyo I saw the Osprey switch on sale at ICI in Shinjuku (looked like it was the last one). They didn't have much more than that on sale though. Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 I got a discount coupon on my mail the other day for ICI, but I was waiting for the spring sales before I use it. They don’t usually make discounts for their top models though. I think they have spring sales at ICI next week. Link to post Share on other sites
Kumapix 0 Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 I was checking out the new Burton AK 26L pack last night and I just want to let you all know it sucks imo. I just don't like the features and I think it would cause more headaches than anything else so from me Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 You need a new pack this year, or you were checking out of curiosity? Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 I have been very pleased with the Deuter Edge recommended by Tsonda (thanks). For back country snowboarders it is a very good pack due to the strapping system, infinitely better than the strapping system on the popular Osprey Switch*. Note: If you split board then the Deuter system wont add any huge benefit over other popular packs like the Osprey. The Deuter Edge is also very easy to use. It opens up like a big wide clam shell giving good access. One draw back is that the main zip is not water proof. But I don't ski in the rain anyway. The 25L was slightly too small for big hikes with full kit (incl rope). So I bought the 30L... and I think that is going to be only just large enough. I rode with a guy that had some Dakine pack and seriously, I have never seen such on over engineered and confusing pack. He mocked it constantly because it took so long to find the thing that you wanted. It was one of their big models, not the more normal looking small models that they have. * I like the way the Osprey is always touted to 'keep its shape when its empty'. True, it does. But who cares?! Its not very often I roam the back country with an empty pack and what would it matter of it didn't keep its shape anyway. Its a classic example of product spin. Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 0 Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 I would say it is a classical example of German designing philosophy. It doesn’t look very pretty but it sure works well. That said, I almost got an Osprey because I liked the design better. Link to post Share on other sites
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