Ocean11 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I don't see the need for agreeing to disagree. You can discuss things at length and in depth on a forum if you want to. If people don't want to read it, they don't have to. I disagree strongly with Ray on this point, but I haven't noticed any lack of civility between us. Personally, I've learnt a lot through disagreements with people on forums. I've had to rethink my views to some extent because of discussions with complete strangers. My only regret at those times was that it was so acrimonious. So I agree with you kamoshika in that we shouldn't spoil things with hateful attitudes. Finally, a quick question. If I had VX gas that I could use and I was in Saddam's position, I'd be thinking about using it now. Why didn't he use it in the last Gulf War and this time around if he has it? So far, the worst Iraq has managed is a few missiles fired at Kuwait. What is the greater danger of poisoning - VX gas etc. that might not even exist, or several major oil wells burning for months? Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 There you go OC - disagreeing with me again. The war has been noticeably quiet from my perspective. No reports of Iraqi Air Force flying, minimal missle launch, and minimal resistance. Although the tape of Saddam has surfaced, he, unlike Azziz yesterday, has not appeared before the cameras live to prove he is alive. I reckon that he was in the bunker, the missles nearly got him, and he is now hiding somewhere trusting no one since it apparently was one of those "close to him" that ID'd his location for the missle/bomb strike. I'm hoping that much of his military field commanders are thinking there is no need to fly/fight since Saddam is no longer a threat to kill them if they don't follow orders. I also wonder about the gas - if I were a madman and knew I was going to die, I'd want to take as many "infidels" with me as possible. Lets hope that if they do have chems, the field commanders choose not to use them. It is still very early however and much depends on the forces surrounding/protecting bagdad. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Iraq's Giving up does not make The USA Govt. is right. You cant force someone to be your friend. Link to post Share on other sites
Weegeoff 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Rayin Japan You forgot Korea the US Army shell Refugees on a railway track.Knowing they were refugees Please note that this war is not in my name and over 50% of the british public Link to post Share on other sites
nzlegend 1 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,177243-1-9,00.html but weeGeoff it seems that the UK is now getting behind their troops and public opinion has swung. Unfortuneately it is game on now whether anyone likes it or not. Now is the time for solidarity Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 geoff - I never said the US has been perfect in its first 200 years of existance. The instance you talk about is still under investigation but it appears that yes - innocent civilians died, but the US has never committed attrocities on the scope of the Nazis, Serbs, and Saddam Hussein. My condolences on the loss of the 8 british troops in the helicopter crash. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Weegeoff, the thing you mention in Korea is still in some doubt - one of the main 'witnesses' to that turned out to be a complete fraud who was never there. But even if that did happen all those years ago, it's nothing in comparison to what happened in the last Gulf War and since. kamoshika, solidarity? What, when somebody does something illegal and dangerous, and enough people jump on the bandwagon, it means we should all jump on too? Certainly that's what Blair has invited everybody to do, but bollocks to that. Rather than 'kamoshika', you don't think 'hitsuji' would be a better name? The 'our boys right or wrong' line just plays into the hands of evil pols. This sends out a strong message that Kim will already have picked up. The message says - Saddam was not ruthless enough. He didn't get the WMD quickly enough or show himself willing enough to use them if he had them. The only way to protect yourself against the US and its coalitions of the willing is to get WMD, and appear ready to use them. And if that means dirty bombs in suitcases, so be it. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I just read this in the news, about whether Saddam has been got: "The school is still out whether there is any kind of injury to him. They just don't know," said Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. School's out! Muwahahahahaha 'Intelligence Committee' indeed! I just know he too spells it 'missle'... Link to post Share on other sites
Higuma 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by Ocean11: In the Balkans and the Gulf, there was every chance that local diplomacy would work. Sorry Ocean but I have to call you on this one and I am afraid that you can not dispute my source... I freind of mine was the Commander and Cheif of Canadian Peace-Keeping Forces in the Balkins for over 18 months... His name is Col. Roger St. John (retired now and living in my hometown) and if you have the where-with-all you may be able to search this information and confirm it... Currently he and his company - St. John and Associates - are engaged in the management of the De-mining of a lot of that area for the UN... He is considred as a Balkins expert by many Governments and the UN both in the area of Logistics, Culture and Pseudo Governments (read as organized crime).... He has on three occasions been requested to give tours and information sessions in the region to senior UN officials in order for them to get a "lay of the land".... From his prespective he would STRONGLY dissagree with t your above statement... His general comments are paraphrased as follows "The region had no chance of reconcilliation politically, diplomatically or millitarily (meaning their own millitary) because the whole region was being controlled by various levels of THUGS and GANSTERS and still is by the way" Now you don't have to take my word for it, but arguing is a bit pointless - I trust that you would believe from my previous posts that I am not a bullshitter - and so if you feel inclined to engage in a discussion about the facts I would be glad to furbish you with Roger's home telephone number so that you can call him up and debate the subject with him.... ~~~~~~~~~~~ On another point, I always find it interesting to see and hear people discussing subjects like this while the events are unfolding... History for that matter, does not always reflect the actual facts.... I sorry I didn't respond to your comment in a earlier thread about you being confused regarding the point I was trying make.. My point was " we are all being hypocrits and - in order to be perfectly clear - I believe that you are among the worst of us" I know that you may perhaps you will take that personally, but you are a big boy and you can handle it... Even though you have preached before about the Passive Agressive Society in which you live, I have found your posts on this issue to be antagonistic and agressive... In general I do not see you comments doing anything to help or change the situation - I have only frequented here sporatically lately but I have found your comments to be aimed at getting a reaction from those whose opinion is different than yours - or are you just being a Devil's Advocate because it's entertaining..... ~~~~~~~~~~ For the record - I side with my government's ( Canada ) stance that: although they agree that Saddam should be depposed, they felt they could not support the USA lead coalition without further or a different UN resolution ~ ~ ~ part of this I am sure is in responce to the Bush Government's numerous SNUBBINGS of Canada since taking office.... Oh yeah.. and the French are a bunch of Weenies too.... Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Thanks for that Higs. A nice little bit of name-dropping there, followed by some personal invective. But I am a big boy, so I'll deal with it. As follows. I never claimed that the Balkans (spelled with no 'i' BTW) was likely to turn into a haven of peace and harmony. Only that work was being done towards that, with some progress being made, and fewer rather than more people being killed. It's funny that you think your little titbit there is a real gobsmacker of an argument - it isn't. And as for your psychoanalysis, doc, well you're half right. I do like to test positions through argument (a tried and tested method of validation), but I don't get much help here. But you're wrong in thinking my views on the subject of this war are insincere or devil's advocacy, and I fear you flatter yourself in thinking that I give a damn about getting a raise out of the likes of you. I'm always amused that people who so misuse the word hypocrite can never quite master its spelling. Finally, I'll be happy to see Saddam go too, but I happen to believe that if the UN were ever given long enough to work, with the cooperation of the US and UK, then more so called 'rogue nations' could be brought around and with much less bloodshed. As it is, the US and UK give these evil regimes their excuse and justification. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Well Ocean, Im one of those horrible spellers. I have no clue how to solve my problem. I some cases without my spell checker, I am afraid, no nervous to really try to use words that might be spelled wrong. I have tried all my life to fix my problem. I have come to the conclusion, that I really can do nothing about it, other than to carry my dictionary around, always! On war and peace. Peace brought and bought by the barrel of the gun, is not, and never will be the right way to make peace. Peace is achived, when we sit down with each other, stop the name calling and address the differences between one another. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 FATTWINS - you're quite right - the fact the US will win this war doesn't mean we're right. THIS DOES Link to post Share on other sites
confused 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 NO IT DOESN'T Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 That means nothing, might is not right. Link to post Share on other sites
wakaran 1 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Quote: FATTWINS - you're quite right - the fact the US will win this war doesn't mean we're right. THIS DOES Dear, oh dear. Do you really believe that? Deary me. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 War is not good. There are no good wars. In every war there are no real winners. What do you win? My grandpa who has fought and been wounded will say this "war is horrible, you kill and watch people beening killed, you begin to hate people you used to like". War is not a solution to the problems we face today. Treating people as equals and letting them decide there own paths. Some people will say, "we cant let these people choose there own path cause they could become a threat". Are we now the better cause we can kill them first. Thats the old wild west. I would be more supportive of America if they listened to others a little more. There is no debate, their way is the only right way. If I disagree, I side with evil doers. That is one hundred precent wrong. The likes of Saddam and Osama are old cold war puppets, that cant be controled anymore. To hold the moral high ground you have to admit your mistakes. Why doesnt America admit to creating these idiots. well maybe its because if they do, the world we see that The USA govt is not so morally right. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Did you guys not get the point of the CNN article? The Iraqi people are celebrating their liberation from Saddam. The mere fact they are now free to sing "Your days are numbered" and publicly pound on his picture with their shoe and don't have to worry about being shot in the head within a few hours may mean nothing to you - but it means the world to them. They didn't have the power to help themselves, so the US is doing that for them. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. When this is all said and done, the only opinion that matters is that of the Iraqi people. You're 100 percent right that veterans of war do not like it. Any fool who does is as insane as Saddam. The ability to wage war is an instrument of National Power that is wielded by governments of the world. Its used when diplomacy fails but if you go back to the start of most wars, I think you find the majority were started when diplomacy wasn't even given a chance. As for "sitting down and talking to attain peace" and "war is never the solution"...what do you think the US, UK, and rest of the world should have done when Germany, Italy, and Japan attacked them? What about when the Japanese invaded China and the Phillipines and wanted to invade Australia too? What about South Korea when the North crossed the 38th parallel? What about when Saddam invaded Kuwait? What about when the people of Sarajevo had shells raining down in their market place with no one to protect them? Yes - no more war is Utopia, but as long as there are ruthless dictators in the world, so will there be war. Sorry to bust your bubble, but the US is not the agressor here. They are liberators. "Peace negotiations", also known by some as diplomacy had 12 years of "chance" and failed miserably. And like I said before - its not your opinion nor mine that matters, its that of the Iraqi people that matters. p.s. Don't blame the current administration for "propping" up Saddam, Bin Laden and anyone else, for what happened 20 years ago. If you knew something about the US government, you'd know we vote for a new president every 4 years, and new congressman every 2 or 6 years. The current President/congress had nothing to do with what happened 20-30 years ago, just like the current goverment had nothing to do with the liberation of France nearly 60 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites
confused 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I really am confused now. Please re-read your post.... --------------- FATTWINS - you're quite right - the fact the US will win this war doesn't mean we're right. THIS DOES --------------- The point is ---- do YOU get the point? Link to post Share on other sites
confused 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Quote: when Germany, Italy, and Japan attacked them They ATTACKED. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Half the guys in the govt now were buddy buddy with Saddam now werent they. What you make today you might possibily have to break tomorrow. How many people has the US govt killed this year alone. Are they all bad. What makes an american life better than theirs. Tit for tat doesnt work. No one invaded nothing this time around. As for the previous wars, yes I agree something needed to be done. We can still find a better way. You cannot hold the moral high ground by sabre rattling. I dont think I will change your Opinion Ray your a carrer military (spelled right?) man. Your job is based on the fact that there has to be something to protect. We cannot force people to believe in something that they dont. Iran was a good example of what can happen when the honeymoon is over. (do not read into that last line, it is meant in no disrespect) Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Ray, that article is mawkish propaganda, and you're reading into it extra aspects too. I wonder if you've considered exactly how the people in that place mentioned in the article have been brought up and what sort of society they've been living in. Some armed thug puts up posters all over the place and they all cheer the thug. Then some armed liberators with candy come from some country across the sea and pull the posters down. And they all cheer! Hooray! You may attribute it to their new found liberty, or you could attribute it to the fact that they're scared of people with guns who come to their village with an agenda. And did that article not make you wonder why those same cuddly villagers were left to Saddam's tender mercies after the last war? And the fact that they're 'liberated' does not mean that it was done in the right way or that the seeds of new problems for the future haven't been sown (as Fattwins rightly says). Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 No disrespect taken FT. Obviously my choice of my line of work plays a big part in my moral values and beliefs. Not that mine are any better or worse than anyone elses, but I wouldn't be doing it for over 23 years if I thought we were going around the world making it worse off than it was yesterday. OC - The web page came from info shown on Kuwaiti Television. Yes, they have a bone to pick with Saddam, and showing that scene could provide some benefit to their cause. Looked awful damn realistic to me though, especially the old lady who was crying because of the relief she felt. Its obvious I'm the only one on this forum who thinks like I do. Understandable since we come from totally different backgrounds. But like I said earlier - in the big scheme of things, our opinions don't really mean anything to anyone but ourselves. With that said - my snowboarding season is over, I'm heading to Okinawa on thursday to have a disc removed from my neck. I'll be out of commission for anything physical for 3 months. So, I'm gonna make a few people happy and take this opportunity to bow out of SJ until next fall when hopefully all we'll have to complain about is too much or too little snow. See you then, hoping you all have a safe summer, and hoping that we all get our wish for a more peaceful world... Ray Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Ray, I hope your op goes well, and you continue to post over the off season too. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Ray goodluck and a speedy recovery. Look froward to seeing you post again soon. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 yo Ray, you can't slip away that easily. Man, I would love to be bed ridden and post on here all day. Lucky bugger. I wouldn't worry about the disk. They are well overrated, that is why you have so many of them, like fingers, a plentiful supply. Make sure you keep the disk in a jar on your desk to scare your troops! cheers db Link to post Share on other sites
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