Smoking

[Ocean11 0]

> The non-smoking areas aren't effective anyway.

 

That's because there aren't any standards governing them. Think that maybe some glass partitions, air curtains, and better ventilation might not work? You could pass on any costs to smokers too with a surcharge on the menu in the smoking area. You could have the same thing in bars too.

 

And by a simple measure like that, everybody's freedom of choice opens up a little bit more...

[snowboard_freak 0]

I couldn't agree more Mr 11. But i'm not all that confident that that is going to happen. Not that many restuarants would be too happy about forking our the cash to pay for the upgrades.

 

A surcharge would be a way to get the costs back but i know that smokers in general would kick up stink about it. In bars though i'm not too sure that it would work has you tend to move around in bars and clubs a lot. A smoking area of sorts would need to established (but then you may as well go outside) or the ventilation etc would have to be installed to take care of the whole bar or club. Once again there will be a substantial cost involved. Then who do you chrage? Everyone? Or just the smokers? Plus, how do you prove you aren't a smoker in order to avoid the higher costs?

[Ocean11 0]

Right, yes, it's all too difficult to even consider. Let's ban it shall we? And butter too while we're at it.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by mikazooki:
no i do not believe in rights.

i am not 100% clear where i stand regarding rights.

my above posts indicate one opinion, yet civil libertarian groups give me the heeby jeebies. Perhaps i don't understand such groups in the first place. Do they support the right to smoke?

It is a good philosophical topic though, one that i am going to ponder in search of a firm opinion.

As for smoking, i usually put in great effort to consider others when I do it... except perhaps at a bar.

I identify quite strongly with with oceans views on this topic.

[Ocean11 0]

snowboard_freak, I'm slightly amused by your view on smoking dope. You seem to be saying that it's OK for you do that, even though it's against the law, because you're considerate of others.

 

But what is being discussed here is the complete abandonment of the civilized recourse of being considerate of others, and a) banning smoking in restaurants and bars, followed by a 'phasing it out' (at least according to some).

 

In that case, it won't be enough that establishments and smokers work together so that non-smokers never have to experience the stink of smoke. And then finally, smokers will be reduced to hiding to smoke in the same way that dope smokers do.

 

Personally I think that would be a shame, and not at all necessary. This from a person who hardly ever goes to bars because of the smoking and who generally won't eat anywhere without a spacious no-smoking area...

[mikazooki 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
Right, yes, it's all too difficult to even consider. Let's ban it shall we? And butter too while we're at it.

aah good. ocean, u've come over to the banning side. a little surprised at your defection but still, we'll take whoever we can get.

now, some words of advice.

first never say u want to ban something, always deny this fact outright.

next, never admit to being an extremist, always find some cover.

and lastly, i like your style on butter, thats always got on my my nerves, but u gotta take a softer approach... for example first mention, maybe in another thread, some heart rending story about your grandad eric (always give a name) who was a coal miner who became hopelessly addicted to butter, sometimes eating 10 packs a day, straight from the wrapping. it caused him to lose his job, and one day, afrter an even butterier tasting butter was released, how he choked on the butter wrapper when trying to eat it too fast.

i'll then collude with my own buttery death tale, then we suggest some butter restrictions, and finally push for the ban.

thats all u need to know.

welcome

[mikazooki 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
Personally I think that would be a shame, and not at all necessary.

ooh, a double defector, thats even more valuable

now word,

i have no burning desire to see all u guys lose your smoking rights per se. there r other issues of greater concern.

i would like to see taxes increased though, and for smokers to show the kind of consideration many here suggest.

this issue (with alcohol) spreads into the broader issue of drug use in general. i see many benefits in using drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) but also many dangers. if the dangers and annoyances can be controlled then a place may exist such goods. but currently this is a little unrealistic for numerous social and political reasons. [this in mind, u may see decriminalisation of some drugs, but not legalisation, as that would face tough public health oposition]

for the longer term, although we (the royal) derive pleasure from smoking, we do so, for a large degree, because of our addiction. the social part of smoking i totally relate to (being surrounded by smokers most of the time), but take away smoking altogether and its gap would not be hard to fill. remove the addicted desire of society for tobacco and we (ask any non smoker) will not feel its absence... so while we defend our rights as addicts to continue our habit, think about a future without it, and protect the kids. think about the health of the generations to come.

peace

[snowboard_freak 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
Right, yes, it's all too difficult to even consider. Let's ban it shall we? And butter too while we're at it.

I never said that it was too difficult to consider, i was merely going through the steps of implementing such a plan and the problems that may (and probably would) arise. Ideally it would be great if restuarants and bars did implent ventilation systems etc, but i can't see it happening in a big way in the near future.

 Quote:

snowboard_freak, I'm slightly amused by your view on smoking dope. You seem to be saying that it's OK for you do that, even though it's against the law, because you're considerate of others.

I don't think that marijuana is that much of a bad drug. I think alcohol is much more damaging to people and their lives. I think it should be decriminilised. I don't think that it's OK that i do it, i just do it. Most people that i hang around with are open minded and even if they don't smoke marijuana they don't care that i, and others around them, do. So yes i am considerate about it. But i don't see what the point of your above remark is?

[nzlegend 1]

wow I opened a can of worms here holy smoke!(no pun intended) firstly Ocean get off that high horse off yours and come down and join the rest of us.

 

I have a problem with Cigarette smoking exclusively, I dont give a rats arse about butter, alcohol, cars, or anything else you want to ban, my focus is purely aimed at Cigarettes. Dont go jumping hysterically to conclusions and name calling, I am not a fascist and I am certainly not a puritan nor I am an anal retentive bore, I am tolerant of Gays, endorse pre martial sex, enjoy drinking, drive fast, swear and blaspheme, respect religions from Buddhism to Mormons, each to their own I say. I have enjoyed Mary Jane but I hate smoking it, what a tragic waste!, if you really care about a high, eat it! make a cake and really enjoy the effects. Smoking it is inefficent and a waste, yes yes I know there a social element to smoking it.

My gripe is with the most ridicilous evil habit known to man, If smokers feel particularly singled out and offended then so be it, my own grandmother smokes and I give her grief to this day about it, I love her dearly but she is not immune to criticism. Its makes db laugh to here people rant about? we shouldnt have to rant about it! everyone should be able to enjoy a night out without smelling like a dirty ashtray.

 

Someone said it was ridiculous to ban smoking in the 21st century, quite frankly its moronic and ridiculous to even smoke in the first place, especially in the 21st century when we know the heinous deadly implications of the habit.

I have known decent men who succumbed to lung cancer from heavy smoking. one was my cricket coach and good friends father, he was a prominant town businessman and died 10 years ago aged 46, the other was a mentor and good friend of mine from an organsiation I belonged to who too passed away, just last year in his 50s from tobacco related disease. It is tragic and heartbreaking to lose these good men who both left families, for what? an archiac pleasure? Damn Walter Raleigh, damn him for ever bringing tobacco to england and starting a cultural revolution.

 

Smoking as an acceptable social pastime is coming to an end, its is becoming less and less accepted by society and so it should, I dont want to attend funerals of people cut down before their time.

 

As for bylaws and improved ventilation, its a great idea but in reality is not feasible and financially improbable. People smoke in houses next to the cooking extractor fan and it doesnt work all that well you just cant contain the smoke. The best solution is simply follow the precedent and not allow it in any public place, and just to reiterate I only am talking about cigarettes nothing else JUST CIGARETTES. If you want to smoke at home in privacy puff away.

I have a strictly no smoking policy in my house no one smokes here, I will get infinetely more offended if you smoked than any Japanese person would if you went in to their house with shoes on. I have upset a few of my wife friends and they all know now. My home is my castle, hit the balcony if you want to smoke.

 

It is small sacrifice for people to make to not smoke in a bar, it will soon become a one of the last vestiges of public smoking. Everyone can socialise together, breathing cleaner air, no segregation between parties.

We live in a democratic world, look at this poll! the overwhelming majority want change, why to smokers who are the minority so vehemently cling to their ciggies? Why cant it be accepted that the century of tobacco is coming to end?

 

[damian 0]

and you reckon Ocean11 needs to come down of his high horse?

 

Face it, you simply hate smoking and are prepared to fall over in hypocrisy and double standards in an attempt to be so righteous.

 

The century of smoking is coming to an end, I agree. I hope you enjoy the society where the majority rules and you are restricted in doing what YOU want to do. You don't think that the 'ban smoking' mentality will eventually impinge on your choices in life? Of course it will, but that will not bother you as you only care if smoking is banned. The majority can ban anything else.

 

I am a simple minded capitalist, but gee I can identify with the anarchist of old who fought for their right to do what ever they bloody well wanted. Particularly those activities that were not deemed socially acceptable to the puritan majority.

[nzlegend 1]

Charles Manson was one of those guys.....he did what he bloody well wanted......

I am standing up for what I beleive is right and just. double standards? hypocrisy? no one is perfect least me, but smoking is exceptional and unique example. I can except almost all things but smoking I can not and will not. enjoy you rebellious pastime your are a free man, what you do in private in your business, but dont do it in public where it is offensive. It is as simple as that.

As for banning other things. things that I like....Cars? Alcohol? rugby? snowboarding? skiing? scuba diving? hiking? eating sushi? Mtn Biking? what is going to be banned?

 

Mtn biking? it has already been banned in certain areas, the majority dont want you there, so be it, there are plenty of other places to go. respect the majority

[mikazooki 0]

whilst there is definite virtue in tolerance it is also wise to remember that the path to enlightenment will more oft follow the middle road. the anarchists of old were right to dispute puritan values, but life without values would be disturbing.

 

capitalism has proved to be remarkably successful, but its success could lead to all our undoing. the free market lacks the ability to adequately account for externalised costs and hence needs some regulation to reach optimal outcomes. the environment is suffering terribly from these failures.

 

u may ride a high horse, but keep an ear open to others opinions. u will win noone if u refuse to listen.

 

many of our mistakes flow from an inability to take in what exists outside of our regular domain of experience. this especially applies to our concept of time. the long term is too often neglected. economists use discounting as a method of reflecting a bird in the hand... but it is unknown what the future impacts of such a methodology will be, especially for the environment. politicains are chiefly concerned with the coming election and have little incentive to look more than 10-20 years in advance. but humanity has spread beyond the bounds where such thinking is adequate for the needs of all.

 

it is fine to defend your values, and most r probably justified to some degree in their opinions, but listen to what the other party has to offer, because at the very least u will know your opponent. but far greater, u will have a clearer view as to what is necessary to reach future agreement.

 

for smokers this may mean a grudging acceptance of imposed restricitions, but adaptation will set in remarkably fast.

 

when smoking was banned indoors in cafes at home, my friends bitched for while, but 3 months later noone seemed to mind.

 

u may talk of eroded freedoms. for me society is one big prison. i try to behave as a free man, but i know inside there is no escape for me and i must make what i can with what ive got.

 

think outside the sphere. think can i live with the impositions of society if there is some common good involved. and smoking is most definitely not in the common good. the less people who smoke the less tragic early deaths that kamoshika speaks of, or even worse the tragedy of emphesema. if it is unacceptable then by all means protest, as u have done. i find it difficult if not impossible to argue with a considerate smoker beyond the costs of health care they may impose, but i would like for them also to take on some of my thoughts.

 

actually i dont really care about smoking, but it is a good test case for some of the changes i think society has to make as part of a transistion to a sustainable economy. so im interested in thoughts.

[zwelgen 0]

In S_freakys defence think how much MJ you would smoke in a night compared to how many ciggies some people go through in a night. Some of my friends would smoke more than a pack whilst out on a bender, that doesnt come anywhere near the amount of weed people would smoke (I hope!!)

 

And as he said you usually arent doing it in a majorly public place where the smoke would irritate non-smokers

[snowboard_freak 0]

A packs worth of marijuana in one night - that would be interesting!!! You'd probably end up sleeping for about 3 or 4 days!

 

On a slighty more serious note though, no one i know could or would smoke that much MJ in one night. They wouldn't even come remotely close.

[bobby12 0]

at the end of the day, all smokers are mugs.

 

you have been trapped and you are addicted.

 

you fork out hundreds of pounds/dollars/whatever every year to inhale foul smoke that seriously harms you and makes others think you are 'a jerk'

[snowboard_freak 0]

booby,

Not all smokers are mugs just because they smoke. Sure it is bad for you, but are a lot of other things.

 

I don't think that all smokers are jerks either. Sure there are some who i think are highly inconsiderate, but certainly not all of them.

 

I would never choose to spend my money on ciggies either, but if they want to then so be it.

 

I don't think it's fair to resort to name calling.

[Ocean11 0]

To clarify my point about those who smoke dope;

 

Those who smoke or otherwise consume dope are breaking the law. You're not allowed to do it. It has nothing to do with being 'considerate of others'. And yet by consuming it in defiance of the law, you're asserting a right to do it.

 

Now while you're happily breaking that particular law that you don't agree with, you're saying that you want to bring in laws that will reduce other people consuming another drug to be brought into the same sort of limbo that you're in, but in their case presumably, you want them to obey the law.

 

And I find it amusing that anybody can go off on a tangent saying "Yes but I break the law considerately", and then ask for various bans on tobacco while overlooking the possibility of enforcing some kind of consideration instead.

 

However, I don't find kamoshika's complete intolerance at all amusing. I suspect we could all agree on the basic undesirability of people smoking, now and in the long term, but people do all sorts of undesirable things for all sorts of reasons, and it's one of the characteristics of freedom that you're free to do self-destructive things if you wish.

 

Having read this thread, I'm going to enjoy my huge cigar at the weekend all the more.

[snowboard_freak 0]

Thanks for the clarification Ocean.

 

When it comes down it those who do smoke MJ are breaking the law, i can't argue against that. That said i still think that being considerate of others is better than not being considerate at all.

 

I'm not asking that tabacco be made illegal to the same extent that MJ is. I don't really see myself being in a kind of limbo anyway. I like it the way it is. I have no desire to smoke a joint or pull a cone in public.

 

I think my posts in this thread have shown that my mind has changed from my first post in this thread. I recently said that better ventilation systems etc would be better than banning it all together. I'm not going into it again as i have gone into it in previous posts.

[Ocean11 0]

Yeah, it's good to talk about this kind of thing, because there are some reasonable viewpoints out there.

 

Anybody want to discuss the wider issue of 'rights'?

[indosnm 0]

my 2 yen's worth.

 

I hate smoking , always have and always will.

I decide not to smoke, thats my decision BUT smokers shouldn't have the right to decide wether i smoke thru their secondary smoke.

People that smoke mull (MJ, ganj, etc) usually do it in a private situation thus not forcing everyone around them to be secondary smokers.

i love taking my mates surfing coz they cant smoke in my car! rthe ciggy smoke sticks to everything and makes it smell forever and i have to live with that and sleep in ti too.. F$%k dat!

 

But if you wanna pull a bong in my car, house etc then be my guest (as long as ya don't chop (mix it)) and make sure you pass the driver one too! Mull smoke doesn't reek like ciggys and in my opinion gives a better effect!

maybe some might say that i have double standards but I don't think so.

[snowboard_freak 0]

I'd be up for a discussion on "rights".

 

Although it's my b'day this weekend so some of my posts might be a little odd.

 

 

Ocean you can puff on your cigar while typing and i'll have my billy by my side.

[indosnm 0]

Ocean, just to let you know that where i come from in Oz (Sth. Australia) we ARE allowed to smoke dope and grow it too, it is not breaking the law, though in some states it is....

[snowboard_freak 0]

Indo, only just saw your post. just got in before mine!

 

Good on you for not mixing it up! I don't see the point of mixing either.

[mogski 0]

Nothing more to add to this topic but I jsut wanted to send out a great big pat on the back to you all.

 

In reading this thread I am humbled and shocked at just how poor my English expression really is. I should've paid way more attention in school.

 

Well, time for a smoke. (Outside)

[mikazooki 0]

and in other news, health campaigners are complaining of a misuse of funds as northern islands largest hospital plans to spend 500,000 pounds build smoking rooms on every floor. N irelands chief medical officer said it doesnt represent a good use of money, but added 30% of people in NI smoke, and many patients and visitors refuse to stop smoking in the hospital anyway.

 

 

and with marijuana, the smoking styles are different. mj leads to high rates of mouth and throat cancer (like smoking rollies) lower rates of lung cancer, and far few other cancer related to the poisons in tobacco.

 

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:

Anybody want to discuss the wider issue of 'rights'?

im interested in discussing our rights to consume more than our share of the earths resources and how we can infringe upon this 'right'. but maybe its best left for another time.