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db dont worry I can stand up for myself.

 

Canada stood by the sanctions but come on what can we do? If we piss off the US, The US slaps another tax on something like wheat oil or lumber. Most Canadians I know did not support the war. As for Sanctions most people wanted them lessoned along time ago. How many people have to die man it really comes down to that.

 

US foreign policy is a joke. The US listens to Nobody. If you dont do what we say we will do it anyway. If your not with us your againist us.

 

Osama bin ladin formerly on the CIA payroll

Sadam Hussain formly chummy with Don rumsfield

Mr Noriega supported dictator of the US government.

The Shah of Iran and his greedy posse supported by the US.

Afircan leaders killed by the CIA.

Chile Phinochet and his deaths squads supported by the USA.

The list goes on and on and on.

 

Get to the fact of how much blood is enough. Break it fix it break it fix it if we dont like it destroy it fix it again. That is the true meaning of a dictator.

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No sure what I said that indicate folks who work behind computers suck, but 1/2 of my job is spent behind a computer every day, and the other half is spent working with folks who spend their entire day behind computers - I'm in the communications part of the AF, so why would I say computer folks suck?

 

What I meant was, its incredibly easy to "be brave" when sitting behind a computer on the net (Kintaro is a case in point), and a whole different situation in person.

 

I reckon your reckoning is wrong FT. A million deaths? By the hands of the US? Now whose reading propoganda?

 

You know, I started the thread "If war isn't the answer" for a reason, but no one has provided a solid solution yet. Sure, its easy for civilized folks like you and me to sing "kumbaya" but that doesn't mean shit to murderers who become dictators.

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> Sure, its easy for civilized folks like you and me to sing "kumbaya" but that doesn't mean shit to murderers who become dictators.

 

You obviously haven't been reading carefully then Ray, because what people have been saying is not singing kumbaya, but actually trying to work through the UN and abide by international law, systems that the US did so much to set up and have since done so much to destroy.

 

And just because somebody who isn't a heroic member of the armed forces says something when sitting behind a computer doesn't mean they wouldn't say the same thing in person. That's the fantasy entertained by every meathead US military poster in Japan, but it's just that, a fantasy. Walk over to JapanToday, and you'll find plenty of examples.

 

Instead of playing the strawman kumbaya game and revealing your contempt and prejudice, why don't you start answering some of the points raised here, if'n you want an adult discussion. How about addressing db's point about why demonstrating at a US base shouldn't require courage? The same question occurred to me too. Were you perhaps saying that US forces are thugs who wouldn't be able to maintain discipline in the face of people exercising a democratic right? ;\)

 

And I ask again, how many dead Iraqi civilians, killed from the sky at minimal risk to the killers, are worth one Saddam?

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Ocean, where you from? Just want a perspective of where you get your beliefs. You're obviously anti-American...that's fine. But stand up and tell us all were you get your remarkable morals. It must be from a country that does no wrong. I wanna go there.

 

Ray, leave me out of your ( ) sections. I'm not an example. Talk to me directly if you've got a problem. Aaaaiiiittt!

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Jared’s functionalist theory of heroism

 

Soldiers need to be considered heroes in order to convince them to continue killing for the government (and therefore the people who elected them). If everyone despised the soldiers as murderers and baby maimers then no one desirable would do it. Public servants like the parking officer and the tax man have simple enough jobs that paying them money is enough to keep them doing their job. On the other hand being in the military requires a bit more in the way of mental preparation if we want to pay them the same low rate as other workers. They have to be pumped full of fear of the enemies ability to harm their family and worship examples of "bravery" and "heroism" that they would do well to emulate.

 

If you want your country to maintain a military then as a nation the “bravery” of the armed forces needs to be worshiped. Either that or we need to pay them more and nobody wants that.

Early posts were saying that the soldiers were just doing their job – I agree, they were, but they are half paid in money and half paid in hero worship.

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 Quote:
Originally posted by Kintaro:
You're obviously anti-American...that's fine.
(Kintaro, you say that like it is meant to mean something. If it is fine, why mention it in the first place. You and I are anti lots of different things. Big deal. All of a sudden there is a new label of 'Anti-American'. Suddenly the world is populated with people who wear one of two hats. I for one am anti any entity/person/country that first and foremost pays heed to which of the two hats I wear. So that makes me anti-american. Now normally I wouldn't give a hoot if this was the case and I would never bother to mention it. However since America seems to have introduced the binary category system I suppose it is now ok, nay, expected, to make public statements of our state. 0 or 1, for or against, part of the problem or part of the solution, anti or pro-america. So there we go, I am AA, that makes me a zero not a one, and I don't care if that is fine or not either).

ps Jared - I like your take on the hero story.
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Kintaro:
...were you get your remarkable morals. It must be from a country that does no wrong.
A mans moral standards are his own doing. He is free to set those standards independently of his countries moral standard in the past or present.

Freedom: just because my leaders are/have been dickheads, doesn't mean I have to be.
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Ray my numbers are based on a guess whether its right or not.... Ithink it comes close to the mark. I not talking about direct kills by the military but kills supported by the US government.

I was so Pro US before and right after 9/11. But the policies of the US since then have forced me to look back at what I thought was right before.

 

Here is how I could have supported the war.

Give a bit more time for the inspectors to do there jobs. The lives of inocent people deserved that time.

 

Dont give out sign contracts for oil 2 monthes before you even fight. PS thats the new Iraqi governments choice. The Iraqi peoples choice dont you think. A simple IMF loan hedged against future oil earnings would have solved the problem

 

Admit that people and the US government proped up the regime along time ago and helped to build up his power base. Sadam was supported for along time before and after he used chemical weapons.

 

Destroying WMD... PS stop making them! MOAB whats that! come on you can have them but the world cant. thats hypocritical, when one country has the worlds largest suppy and is still making them.

 

Sign the land mine treaty... stop using cluster bombs do you really need them.

 

Understand that people from different countries have different ideas, and dont like to be called names because they express them. Isnt that a little like limiting free speech.

 

My beloved canada as kintaro likes to say has been told that we will have to pay for not towing the line. Whats that we dont have to agree to everything do we?

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Kintaro, read some other posts, and you'll find out where I come from (England), where I stand on the UK's participation in this war, what I have done to oppose it, and what I think of people who throw out that pathetic whiney 'anti-American' line. It's obvious that you're anti-British, anti-Canadian, anti-Australian and anti-New Zealand.

 

If you read some of my other posts, you'll also see that I believe in a very interesting concept, the separation of individual and State. Something you 'anti-American' geeks can't quite get a grip on. There are quite a few sophisticated Americans who have the concept down, but I guess they're anti-American too.

 

Now, unless you hero-worshippers can find something a bit more interesting to say than a few bulletin-board stocks-in-trade and insults, I'm not going to waste my time trying to have a discussion with you.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing more US/UK heroism in North Korea, China, Cuba and other seats of dictatorship soon.

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I read that the US military is providing across-the-board counselling for homecoming heroes so that they don't wreak the same kind of havoc at home as they did in Iraq, and like they did after their heroics in Afghanistan.

 

"Now, here's a picture of an Iraqi, and here's a picture of your wife. Do you feel like shooting either of these people?"

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"If you're a cheerleader of our point of view - that we deserve peace and that we deal with human dignity - then these guys are really going out on a limb and risking their own lives." - I like that 'cheerleader'.

 

Actually, this alternative version has been out in the US media for at least a week, if not longer - I found it on the Web a while ago, but the news about the news isn't news anymore.

 

This makes all the mockery of the Iraqi Minister of Information all seem rather hollow...

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If you haven't yet seen a movie called "Wag the dog" with Dustin Hoffman and Robert Deniro then do yourself a favour. It could very well have been written to describe this whole episode.

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Antonio, I was wondering about that. What I wondered was, who actually inspired who, the studios or the military? Did the studio get wind of what the military was doing with the media and base the film on it, or did the military see the film and say, why didn't we do that before?

 

I'm looking forward to the comments from the hero worshippers on this. Ray? Plucky? Kintaro?

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Sorry to not have responded earlier - I was back in Okinawa for the last 2 weeks for a follow-up at the docs...anyway,

 

Kintaro - do you ever check your private messages?

 

OC - Wag the dog - interesting movie - the plot of that movie has crossed my mind more than a few times.

 

As for the "guardian" story...Its the first time I'm hearing of it but I do know a few things. The truth will come out. We're not robots, and if in fact the rescue was a show, then Jessica and the Marines who participated will speak up. I also would expect them to speak up if in fact it was a real rescue.

 

I also want to add that when I saw the television show I mentioned in an earlier post, the one on A&E television, the reporter who "broke the news" so to speak, the one who was imbedded with those marines, who interviewed the doctor muliple times during the docs trips back and forth to provide info to the marines, was a british journalist (BBC I think) who had no reason to lie about the Lynch story. Contrary to the guy in the guardian story, he was there, not pissing in his beer in Doha. At any rate, the whole truth about the rescue will come out and regardless of how she was brought back to the US side, the fact remains she was in an ambush, was injured, was a POW for a period of time, and survived. She deserves some credit for that, and it doesn't really matter what the readers here think, she's still gonna get it back in the states.

 

db - as always, you crack me up.

 

Jared - you may have a point, though my preference is that we got paid a whole lot more money.

 

I read a Japanese newspaper during the plane ride today - had an article about MORE mass graves found in Iraq, containing over 15,000 bodies, some perhaps buried alive...

 

Like you OC - sometimes I wonder if the innocents killed are worth one Saddam. And then I read articles like the ones I read today...15,000 people. I have to wonder what their relatives answer to your question is - if they have any relatives still alive that is...

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The correct figure is between 4000 to 15000. My thinking is it will be on the low side of that number. Still mass graves are not something to cheer about.

 

But had the US not funded this regime though out the 80's how much of this would have come to pass. How many US bought bullets killed other people in the middle east in the 60 70 80 90 00s.

 

I started another thread the government of the US has approved tactical nukes. considering that nukes kill people fast and some over long periods of time doesnt that break some rule of war.

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Ray, I think you were missed around here. I did check my personals. You're authentic BI....my apologies. Sincerely. I hope your doc visit went well! A hui ho!

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