Abortion

[Siren 0]

If you are saying that you are just against widespread abortion then I don't think many people can argue against you.

 

I didn't read the early comments so don't know what are the alternatives offered.

[Siren 0]

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I wouldn't be jumping up and down with joy - far from it - but I would not feel guilty about or morally wrong having an abortion if I were put into a situation where I became pregnant and really did not want to have a child.

We assume your parents didn't share this view.

[Snowhaus 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
Guilt can be a good indicator of awareness of wrongdoing, in people of sound mind and good conscience.

Is it? I would feel guilty if I ate an entire packet of Tim Tams, but that's because I know that society condemns women who look like a blimp, not because there is any objective 'wrong' in the act.

I feel guilty when I have to discipline staff, or argue with a friend - not because it's wrong, but because I was brought up in the 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all' way of thinking. Guilt is a byproduct of our upbringing, not an objective measure of wrongdoing. It's also another red herring in this argument.

I agree that using abortion as a form of contraception is abhorrent - not just because of the 'moral' implications, but because of the trauma and potential damage to the womans body. It doesn't make sense, but then not much does in a country that wouldn't allow the pill for decades because it was 'dangerous for women', but when they finally legalised it, only did so for the heavy dose types that most Western countries abandoned years ago.

But abortion as a means to prevent a person from paying for a lapse in judgement/broken condom/ignorance/being in the wrong place at the wrong time for the rest of their lives? No problem with that.

I have a couple of friends who were put in difficult situations when they announced they were pregnant - one to a partner of two years, the other to a partner of 6 months. The 6 month guy couldn't handle it and ran for it. She had an abortion. The two year partner stuck through the pregnancy and when the baby was 3 months old, shot through with another woman. The woman was disowned by her uber-christian family because they hadn't been married, and she raised the child by herself for 14 years. She loves her son, but always says that if she knew what she was letting herself in for (no emotional or physical support, paltry support payment that constantly had to be chased, few and far between relationships because men blanched as soon as they realised she had a kid, and very little opportunity to expand her own horizons educationally or socially because she was the only one paying the bills) she would have made a different choice.

I've always liked quote about walking a mile in another persons shoes before passing judgement. Also the one about letting he who is without sin throw the first stone.

[guzzlers-baps 0]

Snowhaus

 

Thanks for putting what I was thinking and what I feel into much better words than I could put down.....

[Siren 0]

 Quote:

Guilt is a byproduct of our upbringing, not an objective measure of wrongdoing. It's also another red herring in this argument.

Guilt is the only measure of wrongdoing. If it isn't, what is?

[Ocean11 0]

> I would feel guilty if I ate an entire packet of Tim Tams, but that's because I know that society condemns women who look like a blimp, not because there is any objective 'wrong' in the act

 

Yes, greed is wrong, and some parts of society condemn fat men too. Please note the conditions I added about the relevance of guilt - I think you might have recused yourself there. We pay for greed with guilt and other consequences.

 

 

> to prevent a person from paying for a lapse

 

Nice choice of words. I think that's endemic in our society, and I don't approve.

 

 

> I've always liked quote about walking a mile in another persons shoes before passing judgement. Also the one about letting he who is without sin throw the first stone

 

Trite, irrelevant, impertinent. I've walked a lot of miles, and if we can't make any judgements, can you point me to a largish stone please - I'd like to make my home under it.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Siren:
Guilt is the only measure of wrongdoing. If it isn't, what is?

having a finger that smells funny.

[Siren 0]

That is evidence (as opposed to measure) of wrongdoing.

[Siren 0]

 Quote:

Nice choice of words.

I am surprised you didn't say anything about this:

 Quote:

I feel guilty when I have to discipline staff, or argue with a friend - not because it's wrong, but because I was brought up in the 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all' way of thinking.

[Ocean11 0]

She didn't read the bit about "sound mind" did she?

 

Most of the feminist claim to the 'right' to abort children is based on stuff like this.

 

Shocking...

 

Now I'm going to go away and try not to think about dob and his disgusting finger.

[barok 0]

It's a difficult situation, and we can't make any judgements or pretend to know the answers without knowing all of the factors involved.

 

That's my stock answer to everything from now on.

 

Anyways,

 

Late, but I think you should just stop calling yourself pro-choice Osh, since you are opposed to abortion 'cept for self-defense. In some cases, choice just isn't a factor. Just semantics really anyway.

 

As for the partial-birth abortion issue. Makes me mad. . . not the procedure itself, however nasty, just that people (at least in the US) try to outlaw it across the board. These abortions are, in the United States, currently outlawed except in cases where the foetus presents severe danger to the life of the pregnant woman, I don't know about Japan ? ? ? I see no need to take it any further (a total ban). A friend of my sister was faced with a situation where she would die if she didn't have a PBA, so she went to the hospital to have one, but hospital policy said "no we don't do that" so she had to, in her state, truck across town to a different hospital just to get it done. The first hospital would rather let her die, passively, than treat the situation actively. Sounds like more the work of a bunch of hand-waving bible-thumpers than medical practitioners to me.

 

As a future medical guy, it all makes me sick.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
Now I'm going to go away and try not to think about dob and his disgusting finger.

no no no, you are going to go away to try and stop yourself from thinking of all the things that you could do to give you both a smelly finger and a sense of guilt. That is what you have been thinking about for the last 20 minutes.

[sweetaz 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Snowhaus:
She loves her son, but always says that if she knew what she was letting herself in for (no emotional or physical support, paltry support payment that constantly had to be chased, few and far between relationships because men blanched as soon as they realised she had a kid, and very little opportunity to expand her own horizons educationally or socially because she was the only one paying the bills) she would have made a different choice.

I am in a very similar(prob worse as i am on completely the opposite side of the world from my family) situation to your friend with the 14yr old, and can understand the difficulties she is going through.....BUT - having a kid is in no way ANY excuse or "scape goat" for not bettering yourself....or for failed relationships.
My advice for single moms....don't worry about getting a "dad" or help from "dad" for junior ...
grow a set and bloody get on with it. Everything else will fall into place.

I am pro-abortion - but only under dire circumstances.

[Siren 0]

Three cheers for sweet!