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rant --> Nozawa Onsen Ski School Instructor literally skied with my money...


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 Quote:
Originally posted by thursday:
The next time you go, and you will, you'll not put up with similar behaviour and will speak out. Therefore you will not go through the same thing again and you'd think the situation has improved.
I really need to get back my assertiveness... Hehehe...

 Quote:
Originally posted by thursday:
The guy didn't offer you an apology, but stated the excuse of a scenic excursion. Not the most satisfactory outcome, but at least he had the courtesy to call you back.
Well - I think if I hadnt called back to follow-up, he may not have even called back either... *bummer*
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the beauty of nozawa? searching for your home gelende? WTF? you asked for an instructor not a guide right? so you shouldn't have been taken on a tour around the mountain. are you going back to nozawa soon? if you are, call them and ask for a compensatory free lesson.

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hmmm tough call. if you express your dissatisfaction now, you may be able to get what you want but my experience in japan has taught me that unlike back home, the customer is not always right. in fact very often the customer is wrong. if you make too much of a fuss you might just get their backs up. a good way to achieve nothing.

 

however, if you wait to see what they offer you next time and it turns out to be very little, you can then explain to them that you are very upset with the service they provided, and that it reflects on the whole area. then politely explain that you will not be coming back again. for extra measure tell him you will inform some upper resort management of this issue as well.

 

now, from an instructor's point of view, there is merit to the ski more, talk less approach. but there does need to be at least some understanding of objectives and the student does still need feedback. lots of skiing, lots of feedback, keep the drills to a minimum. if you find an instructor who can do that well, you have found a good one. this guy doesn't sound like he got the whole thing down though.

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Daver is right... Based on experience here in Japan, the more you make a fuss about stuff, the less you'd achieve... All-in-all, I would conclude that the answer provided by the ski school is not that satisfactory; but alas - pursuing it further at this point would just be a waste of my time. Moving forwards, I dont think Id be going back anytime soon - this is enough for one season.

 

As for what thursday says - I would guess (???) that most Japanese wouldnt really care. Or would they?

 

Hey, SnowJapan.Com#1 seems to know the kocho-sensei - maybe the next time they meet up, could maybe mention it in passing?

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • SnowJapan Admin

Hi WantToSki, I'm sorry about the delay in seeing and responding to this.

 

Have you heard anything more on this at all?

 

I might be going to Nozawa next week and if I met Katagiri-san I might be able to mention it.

 

Are you planning on going again this season?

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hi SnowJapan.Com#1

 

sorry for the late reply - for some reason, SnowJapan.Com got blocked off at work (some of us gaijins here browse this place a lot... hahahaha...!!!).

 

 Quote:
Have you heard anything more on this at all?

 

I might be going to Nozawa next week and if I met Katagiri-san I might be able to mention it.

 

Are you planning on going again this season?

no, not at all. im my talk with katagiri-san, that was it...

 

i guess that i just didnt want to pursue the issue much further. i had experiences with 'negotiating with japanese regarding service,' and i find it really difficult to at least get a compromise.

 

if there is still snow left, id probably might try another GO at nozawa (feedback from some friends are really good!!). however, this weekend at happo would probably be the last this season.

 

---

 

yes, if you do get a chance, please do mention it to him in passing... much appreciated, and thanks!!!

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What is your skill level?

 

Background: I am a CSIA certified ski instructor.

 

One huge difference that I have seen with Japanese ski instructors is that they tend to focus a LOT on drills. I took an all day private lesson at Zao a few years ago and we did tons of drills. I wanted to ski a few runs without doing such drills so that the instructor could give feedback, but we always lapsed back into drills.

 

Now, my comments on customer service and satisfaction:

 

If you do not provide immediate feedback and your wishes and concerns to the instructor, he will not be able to rectify the situation then and there.

 

One mark of a good instructor is having the student learn without even knowing it. However, some students, like yourself, need more concrete feedback and directions rather than abstract descriptions. For example, I would tell a person who is leaning back too much to try to feel the front of the lower leg press against the tongue of the boot.

 

For students who are intermediate, most of the time it only requires a few drills to correct the common problems and then it is on to what we call "mileage", i.e. skiing. Riding the lifts/gondola allows some time for explanation and expansion of the concepts being learned.

 

It is up to the instructor to recognize and respond to the student in order for the skier to have a good lesson.

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Lifts in Nozawa:

i agree. i am very surprised that they dont have a ski school and singles lanes. I wish they did. I go over to Suginohara (Myoko) sometimes and although the snow is not as good as Nozawa, they way the lifts are operated is so much better. Thats not to say that the Nozawa lift crews dont bend their back, far from it, they are very hard working, its just that there lift line system is not the most efficient.

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  • 3 weeks later...
 Quote:
Hi WantToSki, I'm sorry about the delay in seeing and responding to this.

Have you heard anything more on this at all?

I might be going to Nozawa next week and if I met Katagiri-san I might be able to mention it.

Are you planning on going again this season?
hi SnowJapan.Com#1...

just curious - were you able to have a chat with Katagiri-san...??
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 Quote:
Originally posted by WantToSki:
Daver is right... Based on experience here in Japan, the more you make a fuss about stuff, the less you'd achieve...
I don't agree with that at all. If for example you want reconciliation of some kind (money or services) and IF they didn't want to give it to you - making a scene - is the fastest way to get your way (in Japan). It's also gaudy and rude.

That said why is it that I am always the odd man out with these opinions? I would have just told the boss that same day (maybe - prolly not) and chalked the rest up to a learning experience. If I forgot to tell the boss that day I would just simply forget about it. You'll do more damage to yourself by fretting it than you could ever hope to recover.

Also I think if you spend 1/2 as much energy trying to remember what he did and learn from what he had you do as you are spending on this thread posting - the lesson will have been worth every penny.
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Agree with you in some situations Tesselator. Me Tarzan is all for being polite when he starts complaining/requesting something but if he isn't getting treated as he feels he should be, he can turn around pretty quickly. It works every time. We've never get shafted by companies & usually end up getting discounts & consolation gifts. Then again, he is Japanese and as we all know the same rules don't always apply.

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 Quote:
Originally posted by Tesselator:
I don't agree with that at all. If for example you want reconciliation of some kind (money or services) and IF they didn't want to give it to you - making a scene - is the fastest way to get your way (in Japan).
yep!!! just ask dizzzzzy!!!! lol lol.gif
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Tesselator:
 Quote:
Originally posted by WantToSki:
Daver is right... Based on experience here in Japan, the more you make a fuss about stuff, the less you'd achieve...
I don't agree with that at all. If for example you want reconciliation of some kind (money or services) and IF they didn't want to give it to you - making a scene - is the fastest way to get your way (in Japan). It's also gaudy and rude.

That said why is it that I am always the odd man out with these opinions? I would have just told the boss that same day (maybe - prolly not) and chalked the rest up to a learning experience. If I forgot to tell the boss that day I would just simply forget about it. You'll do more damage to yourself by fretting it than you could ever hope to recover.

Also I think if you spend 1/2 as much energy trying to remember what he did and learn from what he had you do as you are spending on this thread posting - the lesson will have been worth every penny.
im quite sure if you did go through the thread carefully youd see that im not fretting much about it, nor im spending much energy on this thread... actually, i did mention that there is not much to gain (check my oldest post date compared to my most recent one). ive forgotten this long ago - and no, not even trying to remember what the ski instructor did wasnt worth it (hehehe... it would just NOT make me forget this bad experience).

however, i did remember that SnowJapan #1 did mention he would check with the boss, and just out of curiousity, i just inquired... nothing more, nothing less...

but i would agree that i need to work on my "assertiveness"

wave.gif
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OK, WantToSki,

 

But you have 11 messages in this thread kind of whining about something that at least seems very trivial to me. At an estimated avr. of 10min. per message (read/write) that's like 2 hours. I can study a lot of technique in 2 hours.

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 Quote:
Originally posted by Tesselator:
OK, WantToSki,

But you have 11 messages in this thread kind of whining about something that at least seems very trivial to me. At an estimated avr. of 10min. per message (read/write) that's like 2 hours. I can study a lot of technique in 2 hours.
maybe the first couple of days i was whinning - US$100 doesnt come easy this days, especially when half of it was spent on just riding lifts...

on the other hand...

wow...!!! you did took the time to calculate that? i thought it was trivial (which i dont think so since we have 2 pages of posts already)...

seriously though - your point being?

as ive said, ive already put this into my box of bad experiences - and i was just following-up on SJ#1's most recent message.

cheers...!!!
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WantToSki, $100 is not that much and its pretty easy to come by for a gaijin in Japan. Winter sports have never been cheap, ski holidays are generally only taken by well-to-do people.

I don't come from a rich background, we did have holidays but skiing was always thought of as being extravagant.

But in Japan it is relatively in expensive, even if you dont have a lot of money, e.g. being a student there are plenty of packages, I have even seen a 2 day package for 7000 yen. (Bus package to hunter)

Besides if you want to do anything extra back country, ski rental, lessons, that is how resorts and business really rake in the money. You got a personal trainer, who easily could make more money if he got a group.

I have worked it out that in Japan any forum of entertainment will average 3000 yen an hour no matter what you do, go for a drink/food 3000, karaoke 3000, paint ball 3000, indoor rock climbing 3000, going got the cinema you will end up playing 3000 tickets,travel, etc etc.

You got 2 hours with a personal trainer 6000 for the training and his overhead 4000. On average it sounds about right.

I know gondolas feel like they are going a bit slow, 20-30 minutes is about right.

 

When I was skiing, it took 1 person 5 minutes to point out why my stance was wrong once corrected I couldn't believe how well I improved.

 

Besides if you want to take lessons it can be a lot better to take a group lesson for about half the price and a full day because they will take you out if the group is full or not and you could be lucky.

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  • SnowJapan Admin

WantToSki, I'm sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

 

I have been to Nozawa twice since then and both times I tried to meet Katagiri-san but he was away, and so unfortunately I have not been able to meet up with him and mention this yet. I go to Nozawa quite a few times throughout the year but it will probably be a month or so before I go again. As I said, though, I will try to mention it when I next see him.

 

I'll PM you if and when I get any feedback. Thanks.

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 Quote:
Originally posted by dyna8800:
WantToSki, what is your skill level?
i started skiing from last season (jan/feb 2006), and now have an SAJ Grade 2 (Ni-Kyu) cert (considered 'advanced' by Japanese ski schools).

why do you ask?

-(at)Aximx50vw/Fitaly3.5
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hi YellowSnow...

 

im glad for you that a hundred dollars is not much in your book - but sadly so, we dont share the same values... (btw, where did you get the idea that as long as youre a gaijin, its easy money in japan??)

 

on the other hand, i tried Group Lessons, but with the number of students per group, youll never get the fine-eyed supervision youd need to correct some bad habits. Group Lessons are fine when you have the luxury to participate everyday to have it really make a difference.

 

-(at)Aximx50vw/Fitaly3.5

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Well I got the idea since the rule rather than the exception is that gairaijin have been college educated, for visa requirements sake. I don't know if you are single or not, but if a single person cant earn 20 - 25 man a month they really are not trying hard enough. Even in University I was earning 15 a month working 2 - 3 days a week.

 

Then I managed 2 or 3 ski tours(around 3 days) a year. Although its not much fun, its not impossible to live off of 10 man a month.

 

If you have enough money to pay for a private trainer in the first place, which by any standards is an extravagant luxury. I don't think you understand the value of 1man.

 

That private trainer will probably receive less than 60% of that. Compare that to an English school where the student is paying 5000 an hour and the teacher is getting 3000. (may in this case be you) so `you` and the private trainer are getting a comparable wage per hour.

 

What price do you think is fair for a 2 hour private ski lesson? I know of plenty of English lessons that hardly scrape the 45minute mark and fill boring time with word drills etc.

 

Japan is an expensive country and skiing is an especially expensive sport. Foreigners do make a pretty easy living here but when the roles are reversed the seem a little shocked at the price.

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