Hakuba/Nagano benefit from the Olympics?

[Fattwins 0]

SC the common ticket just wont happen anytime soon. the problem tsugaike norikura and cortina is that they are in Otari. I think mr wiggles help out. that otari decided not to join with hakuba a few years ago.

 

You can get a shuttle to tsugaike easy enough you have to take the shuttle to the happo bus terminal and then catch the shuttle from there.

 

There is a common ticket for happo iwatake and tsugaike as well this season the otari resorts sold a common seasons pass for 50000 yen that covered the 3 resorts.

 

there is a bit of talk that a canadian resort company might be buying something in the valley. That might take a few years but the company would want a hand in how the area devlops its self.

 

Japan will not put the lines in the ground again its the quake issue. also if you buy a house you can have the choice to choose what goes into it. as when you are renting you can choose the expensive or cheap house its your choice.

[BagOfCrisps 24]

Are those Sun Alpina areas in Hakuba or another town.

 

When we were there we heard that they might be making a road between 47 and Goryu down at the bottom there. Is that true?

[marnix 0]

Building new lifts in Europe isn't that easy.

Before they were building a lot of new lifts in France, but in Austria there were many projects but no one was allowed to build. And I am sure they felt it in their pockets in Austria.

Since a few years it has changed nothing is happening in France but Austria is building like crazy, not really new faces but connecting skiareas. The craziest thing is in Krichberg/Westendorf where they built a horizontal gondola and this goes from the summit of Kirchberg to the summit of Westendorf over a 1000m deep valley.

 

But at least there the skiareas aren't competing for customers, everyone is joining hands. And the customer is been serviced really well.

[SnowConnection 0]

Sanno, I might not figure your points correctly cos of my poor English reading skill. But, you may address what I want to say.

I want to say Itoigawa road (along Aoki lake and Hime river) has many unique/attractive ski resorts. If there is shuttle bus service "every 20 minitues" between Sun Alpina and Hakuba Cortina, the HAKUBA will be the big ski resort area which has 12 resorts of Sun Alipna Kashimayari, Yanaba, Aokiko, Sanosaka, Hakuba Goryu, 47, Happo, Iwatake, Minetaka, Tsugaike, Norikura and Cortina. If there is a common ski pass, it's great. In the Olympic game year, there were lights and shadows which might cause conflicts, envy, and hate. But, now all are in shadow (resession). I believe this is the time which all the Hakuba ski resorts got together tightly cross over the town/village borders.

 

Customers have to request those service to local governments, transporters, accomodations and other servicers strongly.

[pie-eater 207]

I thought there was a (limited?) all Hakuba pass?

 

Thing is though, who's going to ski more than one resort in a day? Unless you are getting a season ticket, it doesn't seem that much of a deal. Though it would be nice of course.

[mattlucas 0]

Nobody is going to ski more than one resort in a day

It's people that come for a week and want to buy 1 pass that is good for all the hills

[mattlucas 0]

You make very good points SnowConnection

 

I like seeing that even Japanese people are frustrated with the way things are run

[pie-eater 207]

Obviously it goes without saying that it is not as convenient as a week long pass that is good for all hills, but seeing as though no-one will ski more than one resort in a day, it's not a massive issue is it? How long does it take to buy a ticket - 1 minute?

 

I just see things like shuttle buses being much more of an important thing to sort out.

[TJ OZ 0]

The ticket issue is a big issue as it helps to put together travel packages. Majority of travellers like the whole lot sorted out for them - flights, accomadation, tranfers and lift tickets. Even though they may have the ability to ski all the resorts you may find that they only go to one or two. This area has the potential to be one of the best ski areas in the world if the big players were to work together and create a master plan. The first step in that plan should be an all resorts ticket.

[jgraves 0]

If memory serves, there is both a three-resort pass and a seven-resort pass. There was some wierd condition on them, like you had to purchase them through a hotel at which you stay or something.

[heaven-is-a-halfpipe 0]

It (Hakuba) is the only place I knew about in Japan before I started checking out this place.

[Fattwins 0]

snow connection your english is fine and you make good points dont ever worry about that.

 

The ticket issue is kinda stupid cause at 4000 or less a day mid week its pretty cheap.

 

sunalpina could be a good resort if someone put money into it and invested in 3 to 4 new lifts that connect the resorts together better

[BagOfCrisps 24]

Hey anyone know about that rumour of a possible road between goryu and 47 I mentioned?

[marnix 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Toque:
Nobody is going to ski more than one resort in a day
It's people that come for a week and want to buy 1 pass that is good for all the hills

Normally I agree but I have had days where I skied 1 resort in the morning and 1 in the afternoon. If the snow is bad in 1 place it might be better to hit the park in another.

Usually you get only 1 skiarea if you buy a 1,2 or 3 daypass in a Eurpean connected skiresort. If you buy a pass for 4 days or more you can go wherever you want to on the same pass.

But right now in Hakuba all resorts have different systems and most only have daypasses (although you can buy a 2-day pass or more but than you get a coupon that you have to show at a ticketoffice to get another ticket). One of the reasons for buying a 2 day pass would be that yuo don't have to go back to the ticket counter.

[scouser 4]

Maybe normally should read almost no-one

[NoFakie 45]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Tohoku bum:
Does anyone on this list have access to actual numbers for revenues of the ski resorts themselves before/after the olympics?

No, but numbers are now less than half of what they were at the peak (1992?). Lift tickets and accommodation are also cheaper than they used to be, and improved roads and the Shinkansen now mean people stay fewer nights in accomodation. If I understand multiplication, that means much less revenue. Throw in rising fuel costs into the mix and you have a right pickle.

Hakuba could be run much better, but the main problem is that there are simply too many other ski resorts in Japan. Many stay open as tax write-offs for corporations or thanks to large injections of public money. It pushes down prices and messes up the whole industry.

Some of the things people suggest like party buses going around at night have already been tried. Locals here are always putting parties on. If the response was there, they would put on more for sure.

BoC your road is probably waiting for funds from the national government. I remember seeing a line drawn that way on the local government website. If the money comes through for a section of it, that part will be built, regardless of whether the road is needed or however long the money for the other bits will take to arrive. That's how things work here.

[mattlucas 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by scouser:
Maybe normally should read almost no-one

I should change that because I just realized I've skied at Happo and then left to a different resort and done the opposite after the fuzz got to close and left to Happo

[akafuji 0]

Yes it is right.

There are too many ski field and too many hotel. I think there will be a lot more sadness before more general hapiness. Of course some success story.

[Rag-Doll 0]

Hi akafuji - (does that mean Red Fuji?)

 

I agree there are many small resorts that simply should never have opened if they were looking to get customers from anywhere other than the local town. However, for the bigger resorts I don't think it is a problem of too many hotels, rather its a problem of not enough customers. The domestic ski industry simply isn't strong enough to support the infrastructure that is in place. Absent a massive reversal of recent trends which is very unlikely (look at the numbers for Yuzawa that SJ put on here occasionally where even good snow years show a decline in numbers from previous years) the only source of new customers or potential growth is from overseas. Niseko is a micro example of what should be happening in a lot of a bigger resorts around Japan. Judging by the two English language real estate websites for Hakuba it is probably already starting to happen there. Maybe the Myoko valley and Shiga Kogen would be other areas that would benefit from a foreigner invasion – I don’t know the western or the northern resort areas at all but perhaps there are similar examples there as well. Offering English services and facilities is a step in the right direction but it needs more than that – Kandatsu perhaps reflects how things should be done.

 

The major resorts/areas need to suck up a bit of pain, visit resorts in Europe and North America and find out how the snow industry actually works and then completely revamp the way the industry is run in Japan – everything from safety to advertising to accommodation to off the snow entertainment should be stripped back and redone with a view to making Japan THE go to place for snow sports in the Asia Pacific. Japan is perfectly positioned to monopolize the snow market in Asia. Maybe they already are making efforts to tap the Asian market and I don’t know about it. But even in wealthy HK the snow sports profile is pretty low. I reckon Brisbane offers a wider range of snow sports services/stores than HK does. Asia has never been wealthier and air travel never cheaper - business should be booming.

 

I know such things will fundamentally change what is appealing about skiing in Japan now – uncrowded slopes, fairly cheap services etc. But it seems that apart from a few notable exceptions, (Arai and Kandatsu spring to mind) there is a reluctance, if not a deliberate refusal, to acknowledge that the bubble times are never coming back. Things like party buses and even joint lift tickets amount to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and unless they make a proper play for the foreign market nothing much will change snd curry rice will to epitomize the industry.

[SnowJapan.Com#2 0]

 Quote:

look at the numbers for Yuzawa that SJ put on here occasionally

We're preparing another one of those actually at the moment.

Quick fact for now..... Yuzawa & Minamiuonuma-shi (Shiozawa/Muikamachi) down 14% in total from last year.

[SnowJapan#Andrew 6]

 Quote:

Maybe they already are making efforts to tap the Asian market

Some efforts are starting to being made in Asia and Australia (of course!) by some resorts/associations, but surely nowhere near enough - and there seem to be small groups doing their own thing with no big plan which is a common problem.

It is definitely increasing though. With Snow Japan related stuff I speak with quite a lot of ski resort people and I have noticed a fairly big change in thinking this last season. It might take a while for that to actually translate to some action though. There are of course still those resorts who are just totally not interested in foreigners and there seems no changing their minds (for now anyway).

JNTO are getting actively involved in a few things overseas and I am actually putting together a report to share with them (including the data from our questionnaire) and discussing these things in detail at a meeting in July. Hopefully some interesting things might come out of that.

[Rag-Doll 0]

Thanks for that SJ#1 - I was probably getting a bit carried away with my complaint about lack of overseas marketings. I'm sure it's not the waste land of missed opportunity that I suggested it is. I've also just remembered that the HK International Travel Expo is on this weekend and some reps from the Japan snow scene will be attending so efforts are being made.

 

 

SJ#2 - Those numbers are amazing. 2005/2006 was a pretty decent year wasn't it? Hard to believe that it is happening - would it be fair to say that ski industries in most other countries have been enjoying a growth in recent years? Those declines really aren't post bubble/recession induced.

[SnowJapan#Andrew 6]

There is a definite lack though. The problem, as is so often the case, is that there are lots of different small efforts being made - but not much of a big plan. Thats how I see it anyway when talking with these people.

 

I also see a very big difference in different towns/areas. We all know that Niseko are making big efforts - not that they seem to need to any more! - but without naming names, the difference in attitude at some of the other main ski towns is huge.

 

As for the numbers for this year, I have only taken a quick look myself, but I think Naeba had a fairly rough time due to amount of snow and avalanches being on the news a lot. Naeba is important as the numbers are just so big for that resort compared to most others. And in general the huge amount of snow seemed to have convinced lots of people to not bother!

 

Perhaps some people were concerned about communications:

 

 

Some resorts saw a slight increase in numbers but the general totals were down once more.

 

When you consider that for the 04/05 season the area was suffering a bit of an image problem because of the Chuetsu earthquake in Niigata, the decrease in numbers even from that season are worrying.

[SnowJapan#Andrew 6]

Just took a look at the data again.

 

Naebas numbers were down a whopping 30%.

 

Yuzawa town as a whole

--- This season - 3,160,940

--- Last season - 3,884,040

[2pints-mate 0]

30%. Wow. That's a big number.