gogalago 0 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Dunno if anyone else noticed that Hakuba 47 seemed like it was starting up a double black diamond club (go to a lecture and get an armband that allows you to go through the trees legit)... they even built a gate at the top of the dog-leg. Then that guy died and they seem to have gone extra militant on the fencing - dbd club posters are gone along with the gate, and when I left on monday they were walling in route 1 with luminous orange fencing. Seemed to be trying to be making it jump-proof at 2 meters tall and a post every meter. Looked really ugly too and was really disapointing after they seemed to be loosening up. That is what I don't want patrol to do! All it teaches is disrespect for all fences... there ARE dangerous places that SHOULD be fenced off, but when they carry on like this there's no way to know if you are actually endagering yourself and others, or if they're just being uptight. Would rather I could go to the patrol and get some decent info on where might be dodgy on a given day than have to skulk about like a criminal for riding between a few static objects.... Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Are you sure they arent setting up for the uni games that they are going to have soon? Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 a quote from 47 R-1 and R-7 will be closed from Jan 10th to 12 due to Inter College Competition held at Hakuba47. Please use Gondola to come down to the base after you enjoy skiing / snowboarding up the mountains. Lower part of R-1 will be closed from Jan 13 to 15. Thank you very much for your corporation. Link to post Share on other sites
sava 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 If I don't enjoy my skiing/snowboarding up the mountains, do I still have to use the gondola? Link to post Share on other sites
intr0 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 picking on badly translated english is so last week Link to post Share on other sites
SerreChe 2 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I must admit that I am still guilty of smiling/laughing at these translations even after a few years in J land. Let's bad engrish sum mol pls. They aren't that many funny things in our daily lives, so can't deny whichever little ones come our way from time to time. Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Quote: Originally posted by Creek Boy: where "else" have you ridden then? Most places I went to were just as relaxed as Niseko Kiroro, Onze, Sapporo Kokusai. Onze isn't very big and there isn't much opportunity for off-piste riding, but if a little kicker appears on the edge of the groomed run, or someone goes past the edge of the corduroy into the fluff, the magic crossed poles almost instantly go up. Sapporo Kokusai was pretty relaxed last season, and I was riding a deep powder stash in the valley between the "deep snow area" and the "Echo course" with some locals and ran into no trouble, but this December when I was there, Patrol was more visible and present in greater numbers. They were actually pursuing people who were ducking the ropes. Back to Rusutsu, I've been on a lift that stopped when some O/B dudes went under the lift and the lift operator saw them on the surveilance cameras. The J-pop on the loudspeakers was replaced momentarily with a notice to said individuals to return to the marked course. I don't know if they were met by Patrol. Didn't have any trouble at Kiroro, but I wasn't ducking rope or paying attention to others that may have been. Link to post Share on other sites
sfesharaki 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 So if I decide to poach some trees on a power day at 47 later this month I can expect to have ski patrol on my arse? Sticking to the groomers all day.....I mean cmon, thats weak. Who does that besides begginers and older people who like to carve on their raceboards. Link to post Share on other sites
Yuki's Passion 1 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Ezorisu, Kokusai and Teine are pretty relaxed places to ski/board. After all, some of Japans best skiers have those as their home mountains. Dont think theyll be skiing the groomed runs... Never done Onze or Kiroro though so wouldnt know personally. Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Always wanted to try Teine, but never got there. Have been hearing good things about Kamui Ski Links. Anyway, all this is off the subject. I don't begrudge Patrol for doing their job in any of the instances I mentioned - they were all performing their stated duties and were acting in the best intersts of their employer. I would like to see more terrain opened up, but as a counterpoint I also wouldn't like to see a favorite resort close, or have the lift-ken double in price because of a lawsuit in the aftermath of some incident in these newly opened areas. Link to post Share on other sites
powda tele 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Quote: Originally posted by Fattwins: It is a Niseko marketing strategy to say that they are the only ones with no ropes. They don't advertise that at all. In fact, as has already been said above, they have ropes and gates. I'm surprised how many people demanding open areas and demanding things be explained to them have apparently been here many years. Have you not thought beyond your own perspective? Surely a few years in Japan would teach you that, if nothing else. I throw up a few points to consider: 1) While we all would love more areas open (myself included), we can't assume it's our right to have more areas open. That's how many of you are coming across. Ski resorts are managed by companies, and they control what goes on on that land. What part of paying to use their services don't you understand? You can't stand there and self righteously demand they open more areas. You can prod and hope, but some of you come across as if it's your right. It aint. 2) If you get busted out of bounds, and they shout at you or take your ticket, you really can't complain or argue. Yes, I go OB all the time (often under ropes), but I'm older than 10 years old, so I accept that if I get caught doing the wrong thing I'll have to take the consequences. To argue with patrol, who are doing their job, is childish. 3) Patrol don't have to explain why they close areas. Remember, us foreigners who (rightly or wrongly) expect reasons are a tiny minority. Most Japanese would see the ropes and accept there's a reason for the closure. You want patrol to suddenly make a huge cultural leap and start explaining (to a comparatively small group of foreigners) why areas are closed? Presumably, they wouldn't be very comfortable stepping outside their cultural norm. Nobody is. Yes, I'd like it explained, but I don't presume they have to explain it. I could just imagine patrol trying to explain to every skier at Niseko (or any resort for that matter) why each area is closed. 4) Many ski resorts are run at a loss, under subsidies. To expect them to fork out their short funds to train patrol in avie assessment is unrealistic, at least if you're expecting a quick change. I see things changing for the better in some of the bigger resorts. Not as fast as I'd like, but they are changing in some areas I ski. 5) You, as an educated and enlightened skier with supreme skills, may be able to decide for yourself what is safe and what is dangerous, but you are not everybody. There's a hell of a lot of plodders out there (including a lot of foreigners - and some of my friends) who grossly overestimate their skills and underestimate their avie knowledge. Last year I saw people hike to the top of Hirafu to ride down into an area that had had a 1m crown fracture that morning, despite the fact that patrol were warning people at the top chair. I've also been half way down the back side of Mt Annupuri and had skiers/boarders ask me which run they will bottom out on. You may be good, but rules are generally made not for the enlightened few, but for the dangerous masses. Flame away, but lets get some perspective here and remember we're skiing in Japanese resorts - resorts that are trying to cope with a sudden change in what people want, and trying to cope under tight financial conditions in most cases. They also make the rules and we pay to use their services under those rules. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 No flames from here powda tele, very good post. Quote: Have you not thought beyond your own perspective? The answer to the above is most certainly "No" in many cases. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Niseko advertises its open policy in Auz man and you know it, dont quote me as if im wrong on that cause that is pur BS. As for the second half of your post I agree and disagree. More information is needed as to why certain areas are closed. 90% of all the people heading OB are Japanese and they dont know where there are going, ie cliffs, avie faces, gates, etc. Imori asked for my input this year on what to write on the signs and I told them to write the truth. Things are closed because the run has slid to ground, if you are caught sking here you will loose your ticket. Its like ISO stuff resorts around the world need to follow standards that are easy to understand. support resorts that are doing their best to open things up Link to post Share on other sites
powda tele 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 They advertise a 'no ropes' policy? Doubt it, but if you prove me wrong I'll take it back. I'm sure they advertise a very open ski area, which it is. As to the tour companies not advertising the avo dangers the tourists may be getting into, that's a different matter. I think they're negligent there. More information as to why areas are closed would be great, but not something they're obliged to do. If you come into my house and smoke, I'll tell you not to. I don't have to explain why. It's my house. "Resorts around the world need to follow standards that are aeasy to understand"? What part of an orrange rope that blocks access, a sign, and a patrol guy with a whistle is difficult to understand? Besides, the only standard they need to follow is to make it safe. Explaining reasons for closures doesn't make it safer, as such. It only makes us happier because we understand why. Nor is it something Japanese resorts have to do just because Western resorts do it. We could be big enough (and step out of our Western frame of thinking that strongly wants to know why) to accept that if it's closed there's a reason. I would love more open areas, and I do support resorts that do their best to open things up, but I'm not pompous enough to think that resorts are obliged to open things up, or they're obliged to explain why they don't. It's a resort! There's the back country for no-rules, take-responsibility-for-yourself skiing. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 im not pompous enough to think resorts have to open up terrain or explain things to me. Ive skied long enough to understand my limits and the mountains limits. (knock on wood). Signs are needed for those that dont know the above things. Japanese people are crying out for more open terrain. 90% or more of the people OB are Japanese. Magazines are crying for more open safe terrain. Most patrol will say go up there into the BC if you want your powder. That is by far the wrong policy and Japanese people are begining to understand this and are making more of a stink. Posting a few extra signs isnt a bad thing when a rope does jack all to stop people. Link to post Share on other sites
daver 0 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 the key factor that everyone seems to be missing with the "open it up" arguement is that resorts/patrol don't open an area because a small minority want it open. they open things up to make the area safe. safe for all the sking public if resorts are having slides in bounds that are burying ticket holders (and they are) then there is something wrong with that resort's safety policy. just because it cost a bit of money to upgrade a safety policy to be inline with the rest of the world, is no reason to forego the process and stick the standard old way. being a westerner living in japan does not negate my opinion. just because things have always been done a certain way here does not make that way right! ie. old men dieing every year on the roofs of houses because the slopes MUST BE almost flat. ie. the lack of insulation and central heating. (i could go on for days like this) the fact is, the resorts policies are sub-par for safety. instead of investing money in patrol/police why not teach the patrol some valuable skills and get them actually taking care of my safety. Link to post Share on other sites
I-Am-Patrol 0 Posted February 18, 2006 Author Share Posted February 18, 2006 Quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by I-Am-Patrol: The resort does not want to be responsible for people doing things outside of their limit and if people doing it is their own responsibility. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who decides what my limit or abiltiy is? Maybe I misunderstand, but ---- who decides? Of course not resort. How can they? So they have their own rules that they ask people to respect. Like you are asked to respect driving laws even though you might be Schumacher. Link to post Share on other sites
I-Am-Patrol 0 Posted February 18, 2006 Author Share Posted February 18, 2006 I agree money is an issue, isn't it with any business? And things are of course not perfect. But I thinking you do not give enough credit for many things that are happening and also very generalising. Quote: being a westerner living in japan does not negate my opinion. Of course. But it also does not mean that your opinion is 'right'. Link to post Share on other sites
daver 0 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 does it mean it's wrong? is every other resort in the modern world wrong? Link to post Share on other sites
I-Am-Patrol 0 Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Quote: does it mean it's wrong? is every other resort in the modern world wrong? I am not clear now actually what point you are making is here actually as there are so many comments made. I was just saying at the same time as 'being a westerner living in japan does not negate my opinion', opposite is also true. It sounds like you think you are an expert about "every other resort in the modern world". That sounds interesting, I'm sure it would be good to discuss and learn so many things from you. Link to post Share on other sites
daver 0 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 i like your sense of sarcasm. well done. as for my impression about resorts of the developed world and their opperation philosophies, yes i do believe that japan is decades behind. specifically regarding avalanche control and safety, terrian management, and lift planning. i do not believe that japanese resorts have done a good job at adapting the progression of the sport and the advancements in technology and thus overall ability of the general public. simply putting up a fence and saying "no entry" is NOT a safe way of dealing with potentially lethal terrian when said terrian is potentially slidable. this year has demonstrated many examples of this as people have died in some areas that they have though to be safe, and others have had very near brushes with death. thankfully things have not been worse this year. currently resorts else where in the world are begining to realise that open and controled terrian is safer than closed terrian as it is then patrolable, and managed to prevent potentially hazardous scenerios. whether you like it or not, people will go into these areas. i am not condoning this practice, but it is a fact. more terrian open and available means more space for individual skiers/snowboarders to enjoy the area at their own comfort level and speed. this in turn means less possible skier collisions and thus a safer resort. as for lift management, does it seem finacially responsible to have two sets of towers taking slow double chairs to the same destination when a single set of towers with a quad chair could do the same job for half the instalation fee? that's just what i could think of at the moment. after ten years of working in the industry in Canada, and extensive travel throughout Europe and America, i think that i have a good idea of how resorts operate. and yes i understand that finaces inevitably have the final say. it simply bothers me because Japan could have some of the best resorts on the planet but currently they are moderate at best. Link to post Share on other sites
oopps 0 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Maybe to settle the whole ducking-the-ropes issue, signs saying no entry could either provide a reason why it is no entry (a point lots of people seem to be making) or rather put up signs saying "enter at your own risk". The second option would be better, as there are very few valid rasons I can think of for areas to be closed of (if they are on private property, or an avalanch in that area is likely AND would damage some other part of the resort or possibley hurt skiiers/boarders who are in bounds being a few). If a run is closed off just beacuse management think it is dangerous is not good enough, because they can never fully evaluate how well people ski. Another good idea that I have seen at one resort is to have two levels of no entry signs. The first is understood by regular customers to mean "out of bounds beacuse it is dangerous" and the people who are willing to take resposibility for what happens there ski it anyway and the patrol let them, and then a second sign that means "do not ski no matter what" which is policed by the patrol. Link to post Share on other sites
merryJim 1 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Quote: signs saying no entry could either provide a reason why it is no entry Don't the signs usually say "avalanche danger" or whatever? Just how much of an essay do you want/need? Link to post Share on other sites
I-Am-Patrol 0 Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 Hello. I wasn't trying to be sarcasm, maybe my use of words limited. Sorry. I believe that many resorts are gradually changing their thinking, maybe forced to. Lift management, you may know this but many resort in Japan were gradually build up. Small beginning and become gradually bigger as ski become more popular. Thats why some have twoset of lift going similar place. At the time it was what they considered best choice, but not it does not look like that. Link to post Share on other sites
SplendidSeekerOfMatferon6 0 Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Ah I often wondered why there are sometimes 2 lines of lifts exactly the same.... Link to post Share on other sites
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