Margaret Thatcher dies

[sand 17]

As an outside observer, I'd like to know what things she did which benefited a majority of the people?

As far as I understood her popularity was pretty low in '82 and many thought she and the torries had little chance of winning the following elections. until she declared war, resulting in a huge upswing in popularity...Nothing like a good war to stir up popular vote.

[2pints-mate 0]

I'm sure there's more than enough stuff to read up on, sand.

 

She brought the UK out of a very very depressing cycle, and gave hope - and opportunity - fr many who were willing to take it.

 

Ofmcourse, if you preferred to not take it and sit on you fat bottom and complain, then she likely wasn't your bag....

 

She sure made some mistakes and wasn't keen to admit them, but I can't name a perfect politician, can you?

[Tubby Beaver 209]

I'm sure there's more than enough stuff to read up on, sand.

 

She brought the UK out of a very very depressing cycle, and gave hope - and opportunity - fr many who were willing to take it.

 

Ofmcourse, if you preferred to not take it and sit on you fat bottom and complain, then she likely wasn't your bag....

 

She sure made some mistakes and wasn't keen to admit them, but I can't name a perfect politician, can you?

 

thats a pretty poor, sweeping assertion to make 2pints. She smashed manufacturing jobs, which was the major employer at the time and she didn't replace them. People wanted to work, thats what the strikes were all about, of course the Unions didn't help themselves and needed to be reined in.

 

That would be like saying......she was a total bitch who didn't give a toss about the working class majority of the country, but if you were middle class living in the south east, then you prob think she's great......oh wait a minute, thats the truth!

 

A lot of Britain's ills today have a root in her policies back then......traditional industries destroyed, their resulting communities decimated and nothing put forward as a viable replacement to the thousands of workers who were put onto the dole. Thatcher's government, in each term, increased benefit spending compared to the previous Labour government due to the amount of people that her policies dumped onto the dole. The UK employment sector hasn't recovered from that.....Britain has no major industry.

[Alexander L 80]

not gonna buy "Ding Dong The witch is dead" though. Seems rather excessive.

[2pints-mate 0]

thats a pretty poor, sweeping assertion to make 2pints.

 

You're absolutely right!

 

It's probably about as poor and sweeping as the muck the other side hurls at her.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

well the other side tend to offer up some evidence to back up their "sweeping assertions". Most pro-thatcher commentators say things like "she saved Britain" but don't qualify how she saved Britain.

[JA2340 16]

Nor do they specify what it was she saved Britain from.

 

Unfortunately, there are 3 sides to every political argument. The "pro" argument, the "anti" argument, and - somewhere in between - the actual facts!

 

And neither side can see that they are part of the problem, rather than the solution!

[2pints-mate 0]

If you are interested in 'what she saved Britian from', simply take a look at the history books to see the dire state that the country was in when she took office.

[pie-eater 207]

Dunno, 2pints, I heard it was all a barrel of laughs and 'it rocked' in those glory days of unions ruled, manufactured strikes aplenty, and a 3 day week.

 

 

I was always surprised that Labour didn't re-open all those economically sound coal mines when they got back into power.

 

They had 13 years didn't they.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

The miners were the only organised strikes about closures and loss of jobs, the others were mainly for fair conditions etc. Yes the Unions were out of control and needed reined in, however to smash manufacturing the way they did it, meant that whole communities were now on the dole.....with no jobs to replace them with. A lot of social problems today, like widespread drug abuse, absent landlords and abuse of the welfare system has its root in the Maggies free market policies. The deregulation of the banking system set the ball in motion for worldwide economic crash a couple of years ago. As I mentioned before, Maggie's Tory government spent more on welfare than the previous Labour government. British coal mines, by the time the last ones closed, were more profitable than their counterparts in Germany, US and France. People fought for over 100 years for labour reform and worker representation.....Maggie destroyed that in little under 10 years. Ushering in temporary contracts, 0 hour contracts, dependence on tertiary industries and low paid jobs. This misconception from people of the right about strikers NOT wanting to work is totally wrong.......they were wanting to work, that was the point of the strikes. Over 3 million people, the most of which highly skilled, on the dole and not offered viable alternative to the jobs that were done away with.

[JA2340 16]

If you are interested in 'what she saved Britian from', simply take a look at the history books to see the dire state that the country was in when she took office.

I think that my point was that she was the leader of the party, it could have been anyone else, but the party made the difference, rather than just one single person!

The change of government was the "saving" not just Maggie T.

[2pints-mate 0]

Almost makes you wonder if perhaps if it wasn't just her that did 'the good things', then it wasn't just her that did 'the bad things', ne.

 

Over 3 million people, the most of which highly skilled

 

Oh those poor, poor, helpless 'highly skilled' people.

 

Sorry, but...

[JA2340 16]

Almost makes you wonder if perhaps if it wasn't just her that did 'the good things', then it wasn't just her that did 'the bad things', ne.

Yup ... quite likely! Politicians ... can't live with them, can't live without them (but it'd be nice to try!!)!

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Almost makes you wonder if perhaps if it wasn't just her that did 'the good things', then it wasn't just her that did 'the bad things', ne.

 

Over 3 million people, the most of which highly skilled

 

Oh those poor, poor, helpless 'highly skilled' people.

 

Sorry, but...

 

Shipbuilders, welders, blacksmiths, tool makers, cabinet makers, automotive engineering.....yeah anybody can do those jobs

[2pints-mate 0]

Yeah I reckon you're right there, with some training.

 

 

Are people born welders and cabinet makers, unable to do anything else?

 

My amusement was more along the lines of how apparently none of these '3 million highly skilled workers' were able to adapt and survive.

 

Survival of the fittest, I suppose.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

because there weren't enough proper training/retraining programs. Of course people did survive and they did take other jobs......on much worse money and less secure contracts and so starting the spiral to the bottom that many communities across Britain is and has been suffering through for the last 20 odd years. Many who were retrained then found it extremely difficult to land a job due to their age. I suppose you think everyone who lost their job didn't want to work anyway.

 

We are never gonna agree and I'm not going to keep on repeating stats so we'll just leave it at that......you think Thatcher was great and I think she was an absolute bitch of a woman

[2pints-mate 0]

suppose you think everyone who lost their job didn't want to work anyway.

 

Nope.

Similarly, I don't think everyone (those 3 million you mention so often) who lost their job applied themselves and adapted to the new reality.

Does everything need to be so extreme?

 

you think Thatcher was great

 

No, actually I didn't say I thought she was 'great'.

I said I thought she did good things. I didn't agree with some.

 

I just find the extreme hatred and contempt of her endlessly curious.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Mention so often

 

 

 

They are facts, look em up.

[2pints-mate 0]

 

 

No thanks.

1) I really don't care enough

2) I really believe you

 

Going back to the coal mines, I found this:

 

These are the figures for the sharply declining number of coal mines open each year under Labour.

1964

545

 

1965

504

 

1966

442

 

1967

406

 

1968

330

 

1969

304

 

1974

250

 

1975

241

 

1976

239

 

1977

231

 

1978

223

 

1979

219

 

These are the figures for the Thatcher years:

 

1979

219

 

1980

213

 

1981

200

 

1982

191

 

1983

170

 

1984

169

 

1985

133

 

1986

110

 

1987

94

 

1988

86

 

1989

73

 

1990

65

 

If these 'facts' are correct, it seems to me that more mines were actually closed under Wilson and Callaghan than under Thatcher.

 

Perhaps that's why Labour didn't start re-opening them when they had their 13 years of chance? Coal wasn't the future, kana?

 

It would seem that the decline came over quite a lot of years. I would expect at least some 'hightly skilled' people to see that coming and adapt.

Though I suppose on consideration that moaning, striking, eating chips and watching telly is easier, in the hope that someone else will give them their handout.

 

[scouser 4]

There's just so much extreme nonsense spouted on either side.

 

Personally I thought the vile Derek Hatton did as much damage to Liverpool as any of the Tory policies in those years.

[ippy 66]

 

Im with tubby on thatcher though. I LOVE that we lost coal mining. Its dangerous miserable unhealthy and hard work. But its not the collapse of those industries, they needed to die (pity we just exported it to poorer countries with less worker protection - the exportation of exploitation... colors to the mast). The issue really was the lack of opportunities to replace the positions. Or rather, the lack of meaningful opportunities to replace those losses. BUUUUUUUT... there is some responsibility to be shared. I remember being in job club (perma-unemployable ) in the 90s (i was 15 in 1990 so not old enough to live through thatcher), and i genuinely felt really bad for these dudes who were highly skilled workers getting forced into applying for jobs that had NOTHING to do with their skill sets (supermarket and clerical work). It was genuinely tragic and you could see they were in many ways utterly shell shocked. The sheer contempt they had for their "advisor" and the process wasnt exactly hidden under the surface. If you could create a psychological profile it was this:

 

Theyd worked from the age of 16.

Theyd paid their taxes and their national health.

They werent happy being on the dole. But they didnt want to take a bullshit service job either.

They were clearly resentful at being treat like stupid children and pressurised into taking work that wasnt suited to their skill set.

 

So in many ways both sides are entirely correct here. There were positions available and in many respects it was their own pride, or their wildly optimistic beliefs that this was just a downturn and that they just had to sit it out and theyd be back in proper work. In addition, strongly entrenched gender roles held many back from accepting what was considered to be womens work - the aforementioned office and service work). Finally, at a time when jobs under 3 quid an hour werent exactly a rarity, and the dole (without payments into NH were around 35 quid a week... plus rent, plus benefits, plus no council tax) per person, it wasnt such a huge difference that taking any job would be THAT much better than taking no job. So there was also a feeling theyd paid their way, it was time for the state to give them the time and space to move on to something more appropriate (maybe in aerospace or with the new private contractors).

 

So it was complicated. With hindsight of course we can see that what was really happening was a move to a flexible workforce over a specialised one and the switch out to a service economy over a manufacturing economy. But when youre caught up in the time, its a more precarious situation and theres a great deal of denial and communal deception: 'Its just a blip... we're in a recession... itll pick back up'. In addition and without really understanding what globalization actually meant there was also the somewhat parochial perspective that it was a political decision by the Thatcher (Major) government to ship those jobs overseas and that a labour government would obviously bring them back. This also hindered perspective.

 

Plenty of blame all round. But the key thing is to realise that a great many of these choices (or er, refusals) were rational and conducive to the time and those perspectives, A narrow perspective in many ways, but as modern thatcher kids (as many of us likely are), its hard to get in the mindset of someone who grew up with the job for life ethos. We take for granted certain assumptions. This in turn creates a completely unique perspective on our own culture: we're more flexible, we dont have entrenched beliefs about gender roles in the workplace and types of work. We are more adaptable, we dont rely upon a union to protect us and fight for our own contracts. We realise the safety net is a bit of a trap. Temporary work means a career ladder is based on your unique skills and flipping about and not necessarily on working up through the company, (of course you still can do it the old fashioned way, but theres a bloody good chance you wont be working for the same company in ten years time). We're flexible, and we have more power to sell our labour exactly as a commodity. We arent restricted by collective bargaining but nor are we protected by it. It creates a perspective and a whole new set of 'eternal' assumptions that cloud our judgement and make us say shit or take choices that will be viewed by douchebags on galactic chat rooms in thirty years time as equally myopic and self destructive.

 

I dunno if theres honestly a point here but maybe its just that Thatcher ****ed things up for those communities, and those communities helped screw it up for themselves by refusing to accept that the realities of their industries had changed. Bit of a trite point when i say it in a sentence. Bleh, i like it longer and wafflier it sounds more interesting and considered.

[scouser 4]

 

Well, good to see that so far there are no 'problems' at this funeral thing.

 

My brother tells me of times in the late 70s when the eleccy was off. It was apparently grim to the point of being horribly grim. Something had to change.

 

A relatives family lived in a Lancashire coal type town that collapsed. All lost jobs, community had big problems. They brushed themselves off, decided to take advantage of new opportunities, and ended up making a real success out of their life. They are now extremely wealthy. They did it themselves.

 

They still know people who live on the breadline.

 

I can't be having people who just moan, create trouble and feel sorry for themselves.

[NoFakie 45]

Did the electricity go off in the late 70s? I only remember it happening when I was very little, about the time of three day week in 1974. That's just after the oil shock

 

GDP growth under Thatcher was nothing special (below Blair, and no higher than in 1970-79) and achieved on the back of North Sea Oil at record prices following the Iranian revolution.

 

She defeated inflation, but so did France and Germany without huge increases in unemployment.

 

Some people might have done well under Thatcher but it came with a big rise in inequality as measured by the Gini coefficient. Social mobility as a whole in the UK is also very poor by first world standards.There are plenty of studies by the OECD etc. to back it up. Someone born to poor parents has a much better chance of getting on in the Scandi countries or Denmark than in the UK. The country that does worse than the UK in social mobility is the USA, suggesting that market forces are the problem, not the solution.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

it didn't go off during the miners strike in the early 80's, as it was a part of the Tory plan at the time to smash the unions by having electricity companies stockpile their own coal surplus so that striking workers couldn't disrupt the electricity grid.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

 

 

No thanks.

1) I really don't care enough

2) I really believe you

 

Going back to the coal mines, I found this:

 

These are the figures for the sharply declining number of coal mines open each year under Labour.

1964

545

 

1965

504

 

1966

442

 

1967

406

 

1968

330

 

1969

304

 

1974

250

 

1975

241

 

1976

239

 

1977

231

 

1978

223

 

1979

219

 

These are the figures for the Thatcher years:

 

1979

219

 

1980

213

 

1981

200

 

1982

191

 

1983

170

 

1984

169

 

1985

133

 

1986

110

 

1987

94

 

1988

86

 

1989

73

 

1990

65

 

If these 'facts' are correct, it seems to me that more mines were actually closed under Wilson and Callaghan than under Thatcher.

 

Perhaps that's why Labour didn't start re-opening them when they had their 13 years of chance? Coal wasn't the future, kana?

 

It would seem that the decline came over quite a lot of years. I would expect at least some 'hightly skilled' people to see that coming and adapt.

Though I suppose on consideration that moaning, striking, eating chips and watching telly is easier, in the hope that someone else will give them their handout.

 

 

 

I was actually finished on this but hey a sarky look-down-your-nose comment demands a rebuttal.

 

Who out of those put on the dole (not just the miners, they were the union the Tories felt they could win against) sat on their ass, ate chips and watched TV?? This is a modern problem that has come about BECAUSE of the Thatcher policies. Those who were put onto the dole in the 70's and early 80's came from a background of always working, they expected to work, they wanted to work. However no adequate replacement jobs were put forward for these people, that said they didn't all stay on the dole, some did re-train, many did take on crappy jobs to pay for their families and some of them.....a lot of them did move on. However when you put whole communities on the dole for such a long time, misson creep does happen. Every subsequent generation expects more to be provided by the government, due to a number of reasons, until you've got whole generations that have never known work in their family....I know, I've worked with these families and their kids back home.

 

No one is saying the mines should've been kept open....so your constant attack on whether the Labour government didn't re-open the mines is laughable. The point is, and if you want to go back and read it in my posts previous, is that the Thatcher government put people out of work but didn't replace them with adequate opportunities. As Ippy said, people back then were going from being highly skilled in a particular job to being offered a shelf stacking position in Tesco's or the like. For a 45 yr old man who had been working his ass off since he was 16, getting a couple of pound an hour was seen as an insult. So definitely at the start, pride did have a factor in them not taking the "fantastic" new positions put forward by the Tory toffs and their goons. Have you yourself ever signed on at the dole? Ever seen the absolute crud jobs that they offer you? I have, it is soul destroying. Thankfully I wasn't long there and got myself sorted thru my own contacts. In the end though, people HAD to accept these positions because their families were starving. These jobs were transient, the beginning of the 1 year contract, 0 hours contracts, temp agencies.....all of these are simply accepted today but they all add together to keep driving the reliance on welfare support today. Conversely its the Tories who have made this reliance on the Welfare state and not Labour, who came up with and instituted it......kana?

 

I still haven't heard from you what you thought Thatcher's good policies were.....I am genuinely interested in hearing the other side of the coin, because from my perspective and my experience I can't see any.