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Two fatalities in Niseko (late January 2013)


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...Will it reduce the likelihood side of the risk equation no, could it alter the consequence yes. Just the same as the recco reflector built into my new jacket. Hopefully none of us ever have to test any of this equipment in an emergency situation.

 

Hate to be the one to break it to you but the RECCO reflector offers you ZERO protection.

 

It's the greatest smoke & mirrors act in the clothing industry.

 

But that's just my opinion.

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In truth my gut reaction to this was "oh god, another thing to add to the list of ways the snow is trying to kill me!" I knew cracks existed of course. You just need to look at your own hill to see t

Well, the Finnish person apparently went through an open gate.   I think it would be useful if we knew some more details: were they alone, what was the cause of death (trauma, asphyxiation, exposure

Remember to keep the relative safety our sport in perspective. In Australia, only about 0.5% of snowsports participants need medical attention of any sort and as far as I know we have quite a high inj

...Will it reduce the likelihood side of the risk equation no, could it alter the consequence yes. Just the same as the recco reflector built into my new jacket. Hopefully none of us ever have to test any of this equipment in an emergency situation.

 

Hate to be the one to break it to you but the RECCO reflector offers you ZERO protection.

 

It's the greatest smoke & mirrors act in the clothing industry.

 

But that's just my opinion.

 

No worries Mike, thanks for the feedback. It wasnt one of the reasons I bought the jacket just another extra feature. Ah well another useless feature by the sounds of it :) Will be using my beacon when conditions etc require.

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Ratcheting up the fear factor for something that has occurred extremely rarely. It's good to be aware that these glide cracks exist and it would be good if ski patrol possibly indicated on maps where they currently are but I'd hate to think people choose not to get out there and ski through a gate purely because of these two incidents in one day when there has been 1000's of days and 100's of thousands of people who've headed out previously without any problem.

 

If someone is scared enough to stay away because of this news then they most likely shouldn't be out there in the first place.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

I'm with BM on this.

If someone reads this and is so freaked they don't want to go out the gates, then they were not prepared for it. They will not be sufficiently educated to minimize risk to themselves nor to others out there. You want someone dropping above you unaware that they could set off a slide that would take you out?

I just see it as another potential barrier to people getting out there and having a bit of fun MB.
Plenty of inbounds fun to be had for the ill prepared and low risk skier GN. You know it! They don't have to head out gates to find fun. FFS Konayuki and Miharashi will keep most people happy for a long while.
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Ratcheting up the fear factor for something that has occurred extremely rarely. It's good to be aware that these glide cracks exist and it would be good if ski patrol possibly indicated on maps where they currently are but I'd hate to think people choose not to get out there and ski through a gate purely because of these two incidents in one day when there has been 1000's of days and 100's of thousands of people who've headed out previously without any problem.

 

If someone is scared enough to stay away because of this news then they most likely shouldn't be out there in the first place.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

I'm with BM on this.

If someone reads this and is so freaked they don't want to go out the gates, then they were not prepared for it. They will not be sufficiently educated to minimize risk to themselves nor to others out there. You want someone dropping above you unaware that they could set off a slide that would take you out?

I just see it as another potential barrier to people getting out there and having a bit of fun MB.
Plenty of inbounds fun to be had for the ill prepared and low risk skier GN. You know it! They don't have to head out gates to find fun. FFS Konayuki and Miharashi will keep most people happy for a long while.

 

+1

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...Will it reduce the likelihood side of the risk equation no, could it alter the consequence yes. Just the same as the recco reflector built into my new jacket. Hopefully none of us ever have to test any of this equipment in an emergency situation.

 

Hate to be the one to break it to you but the RECCO reflector offers you ZERO protection.

 

It's the greatest smoke & mirrors act in the clothing industry.

 

But that's just my opinion.

 

RECCO reflectors are only good for rescue teams finding your body, not companion rescue. I think only ski areas/rescue squads carry the detecting units as they are heavy and expensive. The success of RECCO therefore depends on how quickly the rescue squad can get to the area the victim(s) are buried. There have been live rescues using RECCO in Europe but there have only been body retrievals in North America as far as I can tell. I can't find any information about RECCO rescues in Japan. Does anybody know more about rescue squads in Japan? The RECCO website linked to ACT Japan. Does anybody know anything about this rescue organisation?

 

The rescue squad would have to use a helicopter to get there in time to save a life and would very rarely be fast enough (they have never been fast enough in North America yet it seems).

 

That being said, if you were to die on the mountain without a beacon, it would make finding your body much easier and could lessen the suffering of your friends and relatives. If the rescue team can't find you body after searching with probes and/or dogs, they would have to wait until you melt out in spring.

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I had a bit of a scare this morning.

Was doing nothing at all risky really, just lost a bit of balance and it could have been hairy.

But it sure reminded me that I know little about the dangers and I need to respect the snow.

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Thanks. I was on the edge of a roped area, very steep the other side. Taking a pic and bending over. Silly me, camera case was unzipped open and my 70-200mm lens falls out and rolls down under the roped area. I saw my expensive lens rolling down the cliff in slow motion. Lost my own balance in a bit of a panic. Very luckily it stopped and I managed to get back some balance. I was just about able to rescue it with my ski. But it was very close, I thought it was gone, and later I realised I could have been following it. Obviously nothing like what some people are discussing here, but I found myself in real panic mode and it took me a while to compose myself. I suppose it just remined me that I need to be more careful.

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Thanks. I was on the edge of a roped area, very steep the other side. Taking a pic and bending over. Silly me, camera case was unzipped open and my 70-200mm lens falls out and rolls down under the roped area. I saw my expensive lens rolling down the cliff in slow motion. Lost my own balance in a bit of a panic. Very luckily it stopped and I managed to get back some balance. I was just about able to rescue it with my ski. But it was very close, I thought it was gone, and later I realised I could have been following it. Obviously nothing like what some people are discussing here, but I found myself in real panic mode and it took me a while to compose myself. I suppose it just remined me that I need to be more careful.

 

Could have used a bit of rope ;)

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dude, dont die! Keep taking rad pics so in a few years i can move to some random country, make new friends, and then pass off all your pics as my own! :wave:

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Besniwood, it was concealed by a deep layer of fresh snow. I do not know the skier but have a mutual friend who was skiing with him on the day. There were three of them skiing. The other two got to the bottom before him. They waited several minutes, couldn't see him and were immediately concerned. One stayed at the bottom, they called patrol and the other went up to go over the same run to check. Patrol ended up finding him. It was about 30 minutes from the time they think he fell in until the time he was retrieved. Correct he was unable to assist with rescue as he was unconscious. I don't know exactly how they removed him but could find out.

Keep in mind these are very rare incidents particularly if you look at incidents as a ratio of total participants; but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do whatever you can to minimise risk - people die in cracks and avis every year in Japan (and elsewhere of course). Hope this helps.

Thanks for the information.

I am curious about how to retrieve an unconscious person from a crack or other hole. Would you just dig from downhill like in an avalanche rescue or rope them out (I suppose this depends on how deep the hole is)? How would you attach the victim to a rope if they are deep in a hole?

If you could find out how the skier was rescued I would be very grateful and I am sure others would like to know. How did the patrol find him? Do you know if he was wearing a beacon?

He was really lucky to be alive after 30 minutes.

I often worry about losing a friend in a tree well when skiing together. As I mentioned before, tree wells are a common hazard around where I ski. When skiing near tree wells it is safe practice to ski with partners and always keep in visual contact. In some places, however, the evergreen trees are so dense that you can’t see your partners after just a couple turns. We frequently have to shout to find each other again. We often have to stop and wait for others to come back into view. My fear is that one of my friends could have fallen into a tree well and started to asphyxiate while waiting for them. I would only realise that something is wrong after waiting for a while, wasting valuable search time. If you are buried in snow you asphyxiate very quickly. 93% of completely buried avalanche victims survive if they are dug out in 15 minutes but that drops to a 27% survival rate if they are buried for 35 minutes (Tremper 2001: pg. 11). Having to hike uphill through thigh to chest deep powder would make finding your friend within 15 minutes very difficult.

 

I think some of the people here are misunderstanding why people would want to take rope with them, or almost any other safety equipment for that matter. If you fall into a crack, tree well, or are hit by an avalanche, you will almost never be able to self rescue. The safety equipment is only useful for saving the people you are with, and they aren't very effective at that either. The window for a successful companion rescue is very small most of the time as I mentioned above. If you are out on your own you probably only have your own life to worry about (although hopefully you are being considerate of other people on the mountain). When you are with other people, you have their lives to consider.

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If the person was unconscious these are the steps Id be discussing as a possible approach with anyone else with me in the absence of ski patrol in the immedaiate area. Once they arrive its their show.

  • Ensure that no further persons are put at risk whilst you assess the situation. Dont panic, assess all options and plan
  • If there was two of you outside the hole, send the most competent skier/boarder for help if you cant summons help by comms as its unlikely two of you will be able to safely recover a 3rd person if they are unconcious, particularly if you have no rescue experience. Even if two of you can get the person out you are going to need help getting them back.
  • If there are more then two send one for help then start assembling what rescue equipment you have. If there is a bigger group send two for help in case of more probs.
  • From this make a decision what is possible - safely.
  • Only proceed past this point IF the risk of rescue is manageable and ONLY if the person in the hole is at further risk then injuries etc aleady recieved. In short if they are dead, dont risk anyone else.
  • If action needs to be taken you'll need to get someone down to them to stabilise them and assess their condition. Spinal/neck injuries would be a likely outcome. Unneccsary movement may cause significant injury. Unless you HAVE to dont move an unconscious patient. Dont remove a helmet
  • Can you dig a ramp? Can you lower someone in? These would all be decions that need to be made there and then.
  • Once in with them remember your first priority (after danger to yourself and others) is their airway - it overrides all their other injuries - i.e. you have to get them out as quickly as possible, clear their airway and if required commence CPR. This may require removing their helmet even if you suspect a neck injury. This is something worth practising on your friends i.e. supporting c-spine while taking of their helmet. Tricky but doable with one person; very straightforward with two.
  • In addition if I had spare people send them up the fall line to guide in the patrol.

Please dont take the above as gospel, others may have a better approach which Id be keen to learn from. This is just based on some ERT training etc I've had over the years. I have never been in ski patrol so perhaps orhers who have can add more here.

 

 

And yes the reason I have bought rope and other mountaineering items is to be able to help others, cant see it being used to pull myself out of a hole. McGyver Im not. :)

 

(Edited based upon input from Jackson - thanks!)

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I've followed this thread on background, as the topic is interesting and discussion around it seems quite "vivid", also I was still skiing on the same region last week so it would be interesting to know what and where actually happened...

 

Regarding the original question that was presented in the first post, I heard some rumours on Finnish outdoor forum: Group of Finnish skiers(not involved in the accident) were skiing on that day in the Hanazono area, and they had spotted some ski-patrol activity "on the steeper part under the cat track, above the long traverse to Hanazono lift starts". According to the story, they had skied the same run just before the accident had happened. They had skied below the glide cracks and mentioned that it was probably impossible to see those from above. On next lift up they had noticed skipatrols leaving with snowmobiles to that direction and closing Gate 5. The group had skied under the 3 lift to cat track and saw there skipatrol on this "suspected accident location"...

 

 

Regarding the "carrying a rope" conversation, I think it is not overkill to put 15...20m piece of rope in your backpack, if you already carry one with showel, probe, duct tape(!), etc... Rope can come handy also on other situations than pulling people out from crevasses/glide cracks. Regarding the rope itself, I think some basic 6...8mm climbing rope would be the best option. Paracord(3-4mm thick?) that was mentioned here also, is likely a lot more difficult to use if/when you then actually need to use it. Imagine that you have to pull something heavy out from a crack with thin rope, with bare (and cold) hands it is very difficult to get any grip at all, with gloves on of course better, but still difficult(not saying it would be easy with that 8mm rope either, but easier)...

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dude, dont die! Keep taking rad pics so in a few years i can move to some random country, make new friends, and then pass off all your pics as my own! :wave:

 

 

you mean you don't do that now??!! :shifty:

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Welcome to the forum Verttii, and a great first post. Thank you for joining the conversation.

 

Pete, I think that considered approach to disaster management is very sensible. It shows you have thought about the possibilities and planned out an action plan. This means in the event of something going wrong you can go onto autopilot and just make that stuff happen rather than spend the first 10 minutes flapping about like a headless Chook going OMG OMG OMG... It's the whole reason people do refresher First Aid training regularly.

 

Muika, glad you didn't topple, and glad your lens wasn't lost either. Your pictures are an inspiration to MANY of us (who may...or may not ... Pass them off as our own ;) ).

 

Besniwod (I think it was..): riding through trees and losing one of the group.. Yep! I know that issue! Especially when you have to keep going or you'll get stuck yourself. I lost PB this season cutting back through trees after riding down the bluff at Thredbo. We were in a group of about ten and everyone assembled back on piste at the first safe appropriate spot to stop. No PB. After 15 minutes the majority went on the the lifts to see if he had re entered the groomed runs lower and missed us, but I started to hike back up to check out the trees. Found him hiking out. He had caught a tree root and spun himself off line and hit a tree...he was OK, but rattled and had to hike out. So easily it happens. With all good intentions of riding safe in a group it can come unstuck quickly...

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I often worry about losing a friend in a tree well when skiing together. As I mentioned before, tree wells are a common hazard around where I ski. When skiing near tree wells it is safe practice to ski with partners and always keep in visual contact. In some places, however, the evergreen trees are so dense that you can’t see your partners after just a couple turns. We frequently have to shout to find each other again. We often have to stop and wait for others to come back into view. My fear is that one of my friends could have fallen into a tree well and started to asphyxiate while waiting for them. I would only realise that something is wrong after waiting for a while, wasting valuable search time. If you are buried in snow you asphyxiate very quickly. 93% of completely buried avalanche victims survive if they are dug out in 15 minutes but that drops to a 27% survival rate if they are buried for 35 minutes (Tremper 2001: pg. 11). Having to hike uphill through thigh to chest deep powder would make finding your friend within 15 minutes very difficult.

 

While skiing in Europe we have always used these small radio phones(PMR), which are very handy on this kind of situations also. These small PMR phones come in handy quite often in various situations when need to communicate with friends over some distance, ie. when skiing in dense forest/other side of ridge/knoll/etc. when distance is too big for shouting. I'd say that using these easily improves safety of you and your friends...

 

Before our trip to Niseko I found that at least the Australian PMR phones(477MHz frequency) are banned in Japan, because they are overlapping with TV frequencies. Euro versions are with different freq range(433MHz) that doesn't overlap TV frequencies, but couldn't find if those were banned also. From somewhere I found that only 420MHz PMR phones would be allowed in Japan. Does someone have relevant info which frequencies/types PMRs are allowed and which banned in Japan..?

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I second that radios are an amazing safety tool - especially on powder days.

 

in areas where lift accessible tree-wells are a hazard, first one down to the bottom of the lift gives a radio yell to the partner. often on a big, deep day, they are stuck somewhere and working their way out.

 

then the call is to wait or make another run instead of waiting. and if there's no answer, hop up the lift and retrace tracks down to look for them. super efficient way to crush max pow while looking out for your buds.

 

it's possible to have friends on a pow day - and much easier if you have radios, too ;)

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Problem is in Japan, the only radios you are allowed to use without an expensive and difficult to obtain licence are a) about 10,000 yen or more each (i.e. not a pair) and b ) have a range of about 500 metres in optimal conditions. You can buy radios with a 5 KM range for much less for a pair in Akihabara, but they are illegal to use here and there are actually people checking at some ski areas and if you are caught with the wrong type, you are looking at a million yen fine or something crazy like that.

A freind of mine looked into it and eventually he actually bought a pair of the ridiculously expensive ones with "kids toy" radius which are legal to use, and we usually take them when we go out skiing together but obviously with such a low range they are of pretty limited use.

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Buuuudieeee Syysteeemmmm!

 

Restrict yourself to only a few turns (though depending on conditions and range of course). Stay within visual range. Yo yo off each other (if its a relatively safe line - shoudl add in that addendum because some lines will have less anchors meaning youll just have to go one at a time with a plan in mind). Use anchor points. Understand your line and understand potential escape points. Dont lose visual contact... but if impracticable, absolutely at no point lose aural contact. Dont move on until you get a clear signal to move. If you arent within visual range, make sure the other person shouts its okay before moving on, and if still no contact, make sure you move INCREDIBLY carefully prompting contact UNTIL they resume contact. Its not hard stuff to be honest. Especially now that im getting so fat and old that 4 or 5 turns requires a good long rest. :)

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We bought our radios in Japan so they were OK for use there. The guy selling them to us had to be convinced to let us buy them, he was very concerned we want to use them in Australia and was adamant it was against the law. I think he was a bit confused - but we've never used them in Australia anyway. Will probably leave them in Japan now.

 

They are handy, but not infallible. We also carry a mobile phone and whistle - that's 3 times the reach; 3 times the likelihood of making contact with someone.

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I have a set of those radios and they cost a pretty penny and I'm quite sure they are pretty limited in range. We used them for coordinating when I was in the videography business. I've never tried them for skiing but I should give them a shot just for interests sake.

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