Chriselle 158 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Haha.... On lesson #2..... the shit's going to hit the (ceiling) fan I'm afraid... Link to post Share on other sites
onehunga 26 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 As it's a Politician doing the deciding, the answer is to raise the ceilings, after all, they are all full of shit, so a bit more won't make any difference Link to post Share on other sites
Alexander L 80 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 at least the shit is "made in the USA". I'm sure they'd be proud. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Of course you wouldn't want to increase revenue/income now would you? That's another lesson not on there. If you're a conservative in the US the last thing you'd ever want is for the uber rich to actually pay a decent rate of tax! In Australia the hIghest tax rate of 45% kicks in at income over AU$180,000 pa. Highest tax rate in the US of only 35% kicks in at income over US$388,350 pa. Before anyone claims that Aussie tax rates must make it hard to to become wealthy Australian median net wealth per person is US$194,000 (highest in the world) and US median net wealth per person is only US$77,000. Higher tax rates and budget cuts are required in the US, not just cuts. The rich there do not pay their share. They may want to stop getting involved in more wars for awhile as well. Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Of course you wouldn't want to increase revenue/income now would you? That's another lesson not on there. If you're a conservative in the US the last thing you'd ever want is for the uber rich to actually pay a decent rate of tax! In Australia the hIghest tax rate of 45% kicks in at income over AU$180,000 pa. Highest tax rate in the US of only 35% kicks in at income over US$388,350 pa. Before anyone claims that Aussie tax rates must make it hard to to become wealthy Australian median net wealth per person is US$194,000 (highest in the world) and US median net wealth per person is only US$77,000. Higher tax rates and budget cuts are required in the US, not just cuts. The rich there do not pay their share. They may want to stop getting involved in more wars for awhile as well. Sorry GN..... But I've never been able to comprehend how people think the rich don't pay their share.... Link to post Share on other sites
seemore 66 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 If you have a tax problem it's not really a problem Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 You're not alone Chriselle. But the rich in the US have only got incredibly richer in recent decades. Their wealth has increased at a far greater rate than that of any other class and few of them have overly suffered in the recent downturn. The top 1% of earners in the US now earn 288 times the average wage. They have one of the biggest disparities between rich and poor of any country. The rich have access to investment products that allow them to earn high incomes at very low tax rates. The fact that Americans can earn over $200,000 more than Aussies before paying the top tax rate and that the top tax rate there is 10% less than in Aus suggests to me they could pay a bit more. Higher tax rates in Aus have certainly not restricted our ability to gain wealth as evidenced by the fact we are have the highest median net wealth per person of any country on the planet. I think by any measure, but especially the measure of how much debt the US is accumulating, suggests that their rich could definitely pay in a bit more to the society that has made them so incredibly wealthy. Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 But the thing is GN even at their lower tax rates they are contributing many multiple times more into the system than the average person. Look ....just listen to my pal Adam Carolla starting from around 1:40 (language content warning) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib-59D6J7HY Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 The point I'm making is that higher tax rates on those on high incomes are not a great impediment to wealth creation. That is evidenced by our situation in Australia. It's because the wealthy have far more means of generating income beyond just salaries. If you want to live in a reasonably well functioning society then you need to provide services. Whether it's for education, healthcare, the disabled, war vets, retirees, unemployed, mentally ill, etc, etc. To keep a somewhat stable society you need to provide services for those that aren't or can't make it rich. And throughout history all societies with very high disparity between rich and poor have been unstable. So most civilised nations on the planet have marginal tax rates instead of a flat tax rate system. Those who can pay more do pay more or at least should. Of course the uber rich though have access to all sorts of investment products and things like tax havens to minimise their tax such that they often are not even paying the same rates of tax as someone on an average wage. To me that is a huge issue. Even here in Australia we have billionaires who pay only a fraction of the tax rate of someone on average wage. People, especially conservatives, love to carry on about lazy people ripping off the taxpayer by sitting on welfare but the costs involved of that pale into insignificance compared to the lost revenue by the rich avoiding their fair share of tax. Especially during times when costs are exceeding revenue the rich need to pay up. They can afford to! Is it better for society to raise revenue by taxing those on low incomes more? Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 GN....we could dance around this campfire all night long. Let's just agree to disagree. Link to post Share on other sites
oo 1 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Enjoyed that clip, Chriselle. Makes a lot of sense. Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Enjoyed that clip, Chriselle. Makes a lot of sense. OO.....of course it makes sense.....it's common horse sense.. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 If it's such common sense then why has nearly every country adopted a different policy? It's because in reality it doesn't work. It's like communism, sounds great on paper but has never really worked in practice. Link to post Share on other sites
xxx 2 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 On which paper does communism sound good.... magic nutty paper? Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I'm not a fan of the Government playing Robin Hood but what GN says in this regard is correct. The wealthy have the capacity to pay a hgher rate and therefore contribution to society's services, and so should. Crippling business is stupid and cuts nose off to spite face, and we can have the tendency to head more in that direction BUT there is no denying that the Australian economy had emerged pretty well from the current series of world economic crises. The US economy has not. There are a number of reasons for that, some not relating to our fiscal management, granted! But our bank lending criteria has been fairly tight for the most part, and our highest earning individuals pay a much higher rate of tax which keeps the government solvent and able to provide the kinds of safety nets and services that keep the country running. It's not such a bad proposal to increase taxes for the wealthier Americans. No one likes paying taxes...but it's got to be done. Roads, public hospitals and schools and welfare support don't just materialise on their own. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 On which paper does communism sound good.... magic nutty paper? A fair portion of the population of the world there for awhile thought it sounded great and gave it a go. Even in western countries there was plenty of support for the ideals of communism even if those who professed to be supporters were at times persecuted. Many thought it represented some sort of utopia. Of course we now know that at least in practice it was anything but utopian. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 On which paper does communism sound good.... magic nutty paper? It is a very thought provoking theory, however the implementation of the theories proved to be its undoing. TBF Communism was never really achieved, it didn't go past the Dictatorship of the Proletariat stage, which Engels and Marx had said was required at the start to allow the economy and the people to adjust from a capitalist economy to a communist one. The DotP was only meant to be a transitional stage before true Communism was meant to have been reached. Unfortunately the Manifesto didn't give any advice on dealing with the totalitarian ego-maniacs who were leading the various movements across the globe. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Crippling business is stupid and cuts nose off to spite face . Company tax in Aus is capped at 30% whereas in the US it is up near 40%. Again I think Aus is doing it better than the US on this. Allowing companies to be more profitable allows them to employ more people. Increasing income taxes for the wealthy on the whole won't effect employment figures at all. The US doesn't actually have to increase any marginal rates at all it only needs to decrease points at which they kick in at the higher end. On what planet does it seem ok to only apply the top tax rate on those earning over $388,000 a year? How did they come up with this ludicrously high figure? Lower the bracket to say those earning over $250,000 for something approaching fairness. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Crippling business is stupid and cuts nose off to spite face . Company tax in Aus is capped at 30% whereas in the US it is up near 40%. Again I think Aus is doing it better than the US on this. Allowing companies to be more profitable allows them to employ more people. Increasing income taxes for the wealthy on the whole won't effect employment figures at all. The US doesn't actually have to increase any marginal rates at all it only needs to decrease points at which they kick in at the higher end. On what planet does it seem ok to only apply the top tax rate on those earning over $388,000 a year? How did they come up with this ludicrously high figure? Lower the bracket to say those earning over $250,000 for something approaching fairness. I agree with you. Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 If it's such common sense then why has nearly every country adopted a different policy? It's because in reality it doesn't work. It's like communism, sounds great on paper but has never really worked in practice. Votes..... They'd never get elected otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Rubbish. Lowering taxes for most people would be extremely popular. Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 GN...I was never talking about lowering taxes. I was talking about a political platform encouraging people to pull their OWN weight. I know my point of view is purely idealistic but it would serve society well in the long run. Right now we are on a slow morphine drip and we need to shake out of it. OK... taxing the rich... We are all in this rowboat together, right? We are all equal...yes? Unfortunately a disproportionately large percentage of the society in this boat are sitting in the back with their legs over the edge flapping their feet in the water, watching a few row hard and also having the gall to be yelling..."ROW HARDER" A basketball LA Lakers analogy..... It would be like management coming up to Kobe Bryant who averages 30 points per game and saying ...we want to see 40 points out of you Kobe....meanwhile the very same management is fine with Steve Nash underachieving at 11 points per game ........ not saying a word for fear of Nash throwing a tantrum and not showing up at all. One note......Now lets leave big business out of this as I think that's a different issue and I think you and I would stand on the same side of the fence on that issue. BUT....in terms of individual members of society and with reference to their contributions to society (which is all I'm focusing on here) the rich pay more than their "fair share". Lets look at a few who haven't paid.. Nickolas Cage.......6.3 million in back taxes from 2002, 2004, and 2007 earnings. Wesley Snipes.......17 million in back taxes Boris Becker...... 3 million euros in unpaid taxes Willie Nelson...... 16.7 in unpaid taxes And now lets look at the rest of the rich and famous. . . . . . . . . Hmm.....fancy that........everyone seems to be paying their taxes. And can't we assume the number of dollars they pay are in the ballpark of those mentioned above who didn't pay?? Oh...and by the way....NONE of these individuals are or ever will be using any of the social services they are paying into. Disneyland is an interesting place to visit. People paying a fair bit of coin to stand in line for hours on end to get on a ride. However, if you were willing to pay $300 per hour/minimum 6 hours...you could hire a personal guide and with that privilege you get back door instant access to any attraction in the park. Cool eh!! Or....if you're flying...a first class airline ticket buys you the privilege to use the forward crapper all to yourself (with the other first classers of course). Press box tickets at your favorite sporting event......not cheap Funny how in virtually every facet of our lives privilege is rewarded by paying a premium. Also, funny (not really) how paying a premium to be a member of society is rewarded with ridicule and distain. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 As you said we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject. There's virtually nothing you've said above that I would agree with. All right wing propaganda as far as I'm concernd, not based in reality at all. I'm guessing you would love watching Fox News if you can get it? Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Sure...anythings better than NHK....cheers.. Link to post Share on other sites
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