The Ski Patrol slackcountry thread

[Slippery Jim 65]

No apology needed, the thread jumps can lead to misdirection.

And, as before, nobody's in danger of dying on the interwebs. It's a different story out on the mountain.

Think that's about all I'm going to add to this thread.

[tokabochi 9]

My guess is that lots of resorts that have ropes do so for their reasons and are quite prepared to accept the consequences of their actions.

If that means a no-show by Gnarly Grumpypants and his chums, they're probs pretty happy about it.

[ippy 66]

The snowjapan analogy is kinda funny. Its massively simplistic. Let me now explain what actually happens with some hypotheticals based entirely upon behaviour observed in ski jos ive been to.

 

Imagine if you will a snowjapan where they said, "no links allowed" and yet no one actually bothered if you posted a link.

Imagine if you will a snowjapan where they said "no links allowed" and 15 people posted a link and no one enforced it but then you post a link and BLAM!!! Ban.

Imagine if you will a snowjapan where they said "no links allowed" and then backtracked and said, oh actually feel free to post links from these types of sites but didnt bother to explain what :these type of sites" constitutes.

Imagine if you will a snowjapan where you posted one of these types of links and one of the other mods said "actually i dont really like those types of links, i think these types of links are okay instead. If you post those other links again, ill definitely ban you".

Im sure there are others i can enjoy thinking about, but im pretty sure ive made the point.

 

This is the reality out there. The rules exist, the ropes are in place, but the resorts are also culpable in the climate of rope ducking through a lack of clear enforcement of those rules. Your analogy is some abstract perfect universe that doesnt exist out there on the resort. Its more murky and complicated.

 

You can of course keep pretending that this thread is the cause and not the symptom and that by sending me off to hike backcountry the problem miraculously vanishes, but its happening and hard to swallow as you might find this, its increasing. Not only this, but resorts are accommodating it whether officially with systems and gates, or tacitly through blind eye patrol policies. This seems utterly lost on certain people in this thread (i too can play the vague passive aggressive game by the way ). Not only are people ducking ropes in increasing numbers but resorts are actually recognising that lax enforcement is bringing people to their resort. This is yet one more thing making slackcountry riding dangerous. Not necessarily because the resort hasnt weighed up the risks effectively, they obviously have and have chosen the policy in question based on it. But instead of simply getting shot of the ropes and putting out a limited liability disclaimer (patrol boundary ends here, if we rescue you, youre paying for it) they still keep the ropes in place but turn a blind eye to it. This encourages future rope ducking and future slackcountry exploration at other places or in other zones on the resort where maybe the rope has a genuine life threatening reason for being there. But nstead of a grown up policy, we get mixed signals from the resort and the patrol, and from lines cut into the snow by people who may or may not know where the hell they are going and who may or may not have taken that line based on their skill level and an understanding of acceptable risk. Theres so much information out there and all of it is messy, confusing, and scattered. And none of it helps you make a rational and sane decision on it. Instead you fumble in the dark following someone elses line and hoping to god the person/people who made it know where the hell they are going. And for the most part, in fact almost every time, they do! and voila you now have a new line to play in as well as a new found disrespect for the ropes and the enforcement of those "rules".

 

Now as for the kagura question, i think i can give you two reaosnable explanations for that. The first reason may be a safety consideration. Theres two rather dodgy areas up there. The first one is that face leading to whatever lift it was on tashiro. Its too late to go checking, but you know the one. The first thing is that face is sketch. It has zero anchor points, and kagura gets hammered. Now you might be thinking that the ropes are in place, they could just open the lift and enforce the rope. Well two things on that - first, they KNOW that this makes their patrol policy inconsistent and will cause confusion and people will duck the rope there assuming similar policies to the rest of the resort. So the best solution is to simply cut off access to the area via the lift. Second, i remember once popping out of the back of the high speed kagura lift and heading off to the bottom of that lift area to the top (as i do), and i swear to god there was avi debris in the area. I think it was off to the skiers right ridge, but avi debris it was. This means you have that second threat impacting the safety of the general piste area...

 

So this is danger number two. The ridge line looks super mega sketch. Anyone with eyes can see that. Its serious drops, and higher up they spill towards the lift area and threaten the piste, I might have been imagining it - im trying to rack my brain, but i do recall seeing a crown under one of those ridge bits once.

 

Lower down i believe theres a smaller ridge line protecting the resort itself. As i say, once the resort opened that top lift i remember seeing some very high and worrying cuts across the whole face to come back down into the kagura area. Its probably pretty stable by then, but nevertheless you cant help wonder.

 

The second reason, equally plausible, is the same reason they shut down the top lift at akakan if i recall... it was closed half the time anyway because of poor conditions so they pulled it back to save costs. Maybe kagura were always fighting the wind (or snow) and just decided theyd wait for the weather to start chilling down a bit before opening it back up. They could just scrap it entirely like akakan did, but then it does help justify the ticket price and brng people to kagura when resorts are actually starting to consider scaling back operations in late season.

 

So there we go. Both pretty plausible reasons why it might be shut down. If i was a betting man id suggest that its mainly the wind but that the knock on is that it protects that open face looking across to tashiro and means the resort doesnt have to spend resources actively preventing people tempted to hit it up. Just look at the map. Its seriously tempting

[muikabochi 208]

I'd love to know the actual reason.

[rider69 18]

Ok this is going to be harsh but here goes.

 

Ippy Tommy Australia is not my responsibility in an Internet forum. I'm more than happy to share lines with people if I meet and ride with them. A rope is there for a reason whether you judge it to be right or not. As well you can not judge a persons level until you ride with them. Your thread is assuming what is safe or why patrol may do something rather than having real facts.You don't even know what areas patrol would even consider a rescue in as well. There are more factors than your patrol aggro level or or that rope means nothing go ahead duck it. You are not qualified to make those judgements. You aren't Patrol, You haven't worked in avalanche control, I doubt you have an internationally recognized guide ticket. Your lack of what can and cant be opened is flawed, as you have really showed no idea whata terrain trap is.

 

It is important to share information but it is more important to insure that information shared is shared with people that can actually safely use that

information. Skiing isn't a gimme sport. It is a sport in which mistakes have consequences. This sport requires patience and time. If you aren't willing

to put in that effort then you are in the wrong sport or you should stick witin the ropes. It takes years to gain knowledge and quite frankly that knowledge cant not be processed in one

post. Being in uncontrolled terrain takes time, knowledge and education. None of that can be accurately given away through a forum based rope ducking

system.

 

Again if you want to ride uncontrolled terrain without putting in the time, support the areas that do put forth an effort to give you uncontrolled terrain in a safe way. Trust me this works. Happo cut down trees this year to combat people going to Cortina. It is on the trail map now. Support resorts, don't endanger people by giving them amateur information it will get people hurt or worse killed.

 

And last but not least imagine and this could happen.Tommy and Tammy Aus slide off of Nozawa. Tommy gets killed the patrol asks why were you there.

Tammy answers we were told that Nozawa patrol don't care and really only rope off this area for no reason because there are some cliffs somewhere. I

personally can not live with that.

[ippy 66]

Im having to assume you have your wires massively crossed here. The one place i referenced as a terrain trap was the line coming from yamabiko down to the green runs (karasawa?) on nozawa. Lets assess this line quickly.

 

1. Is it avalanche prone. Yes. Very much so. Not necessarily on the gully youll be riding which isnt more than 25 degrees id suggest, but the sides of it clearly slide. not only are these slopes well within the magic slide angles (20-45) but the rocks are exposed to the sun higher up and there are clear slide paths where nothing grows (in amongst an area full of trees).

2. Is it a terrain trap. Yes. Reasons; 1. The greatest threat here comes from the mountain youre NOT riding and the slide coming onto you. You are in a valley. You are flanked by mountains. Left to right, its landing on your head and having very litle place to go in many parts of that run. 2. In other parts however and if it carries enough force, as it could well do if conditions are primed, (why do you think theres not one, but TWO massive great barriers at the very bottom of it?) its pulling you down to the trees just above karasawa. Would you like to explain against all knowledge of avalanches arguing to the contrary, that a slide leading into a bunch of trees is not a terrain trap?

 

Being a little more respectful ill have to assume you just got your wires crossed, or youre completely unfamiliar with the line. What i wont do is follow your lead and suggest that this means you dont know what a terrain trap is. Though if you havent got your wires crossed i suggest you go take an avi course before you pop under any more ropes

 

As for tommy and tammy story... im pretty sure i said patrol DO care, and they very specifically rope off the area i mentioned BECAUSE its a terrain trap. Now tommy and tammy know much better about which lines of yours and your mates they should be following and which ones will likely be challenging for their level (a calculation they get to make for themselves).

 

Were it not for this thread though tommy and tammy would see you and your mates lines with all your wisdom and experience heading off that way and wonder where they go. Theyd follow you because backcountry traffic is increasing, the industry pushes it, and because its some super secret awesome line filled with powder and yetis, and then when patrol asks tommy why tammy is dead and what the hell they were doing there, he can much more likely answer... "well i saw all these lines so figured it was okay".

 

Straight answer time:

 

1. Do you believe that numbers of people ducking ropes is going up or down?

2. Do you think this is due to a massive discussion about slackcountry and that people are more informed about the dangers and are thus following a natural progression chain, or do you think that there are more people in the slackcountry who dont know what theyre doing and just popping under some ropes because theyre seeing other people pop under some ropes? You said before something about "a site aimed at average riders"... who do you think are making up this increase in traffic? Experienced longstanding backcountry enthusiasts?

3. How do you find lines on a resort youve never ridden? Do you wait until youve been there a few weeks and then get comfy with the locals? Do you buy a topographica map and spend hours carefully studying the lines? or do you do what EVERY OTHER slackcountry kid does and see a bunch of lines heading off under a rope and follow them?

4. If you do what almost no one else does and fastidiously study the course or wait until youre with a guide, well done you on being about 1% of the people out there! If however you do what almost everyone else does... has this behaviour lead you to make occasionally stupid mistakes or do you have a sixth sense and super powers to automatically judge whether a line is safe based on how the rope is put up?

5. When you started out rope ducking, did your success at finding fresh lines and happily plonking you back on teh resort with no consequences make you more or less interested in riding slackcountry?

6. How and why did you start learning about avalanche safety?

7. Did your avalanche safety information make you more or less confident in slackcountry?

8. Do you actually know what a terrain trap is?

9. Do you know when you are AND ARENT in avalanche terrain?

10. Since your motto is find it out by youself, dont you worry that this attitude leads to more danger for people like me, and people below my level having access to no information and told to go find it out ourselves, i dunno, by ducking a rope?

11. Do you ever feel bad that youre super knowledge is risking peoples lives by ducking ropes and giving them a giant route course. At least if you painted it in ms paint and explained the terrain issues you found by pure observation youd be giving at least SOME information about the line and some of the things people would want to consider when they took it? Dont you feel bad that youre sending people into dangerous terrain without any information?

 

And finally... where is this assumption that IM the one deciding which parts are safe and which parts arent, the whole intention of this thread was for multiple perspectives. The attempt failed because people would much rather be holier than thou and shut down any conversation than actually help to inform people? Let me point something that ive said consistently throughout this... i think you can go back to page two when the whole tone of the thread and check me up on it if you like.

 

The problem isnt the rope. The problem are the numbers of lines heading under the ropes (you are culpable for this just as i am, lets not pretend some of us are more responsible, it only leads to massive hypocrisy). The problem is that more people are going into the slackcountry and not knowing anything about it. The problem is that any discussion on slackcountry is assumed to be a glowing endorsement of it. The problem is that these people starting to explore it have no real clue whats going on and which trails are leading them way out of their level. Nor do they know which trails are leading them down a nice little slope which ski patrol think its fine for people to slide on by tacitly turning a blind eye on it. They are taking horrendous chances which jeopardise their safety. The problem, is mixed signals. Its a bunch of noise with no real clear message. If ducking a rope meant you always got your ski pass taken away, then blam! fewer people would be ducking ropes. Not only would there be fewer people ducking ropes, but people tempted to duck ropes wouldnt know where the hell they were going because there would be fewer lines telling them.

 

But then people would go somewhere else and ski resorts understand this. Which is why the policy and approach to the whole issue is an absolute mess. They cant just unrope stuff without actually having to deal with that area in a sensible manner and devote resources to it - EVEN IF - that area is still marked outside of the resort boundaries. But they cant stop people from ducking x, y, z rope because they want them in the resort having fun. So you have a bunch of ropes all looking exactly alike and all signifying completely different things. One simple change might be to color code it, but then you return to the problem of actually having people duck the "safe" ropes and feeling aggrieved that they took that as an indication it was safe. In such cases you might as well just open up that area or rope it off entirely and pull passes.

 

And this is the real crux of this whole discussion:

 

WE DONT KNOW WHICH PARTS ARE (generally) SAFE AND WHICH PARTS ARE VERY DANGEROUS BECAUSE NO ONE IS WILLING TO SAY. It seems to be some kind of tacit hope that by not saying, teh responsibility is increased to make their own decision, and thus people will stick with the nice safe line on the groomers. I keep saying this: This approach is dead. Numbers in the slackcountry are going up and this in turn encourages others to try out slackcountry. Theyre not doing it because of threads on teh internet. Theyre doing it because they are seeing a bunch of lines head off that way and want to be a part of the super secret. Were numbers going down then "shut up ipps!" would be fair. But theye not. They are increasing,and dramatically so. Thus adopting the policy of silence and hoping the taboo holds i will strongly argue endangers people far more than actually talking about it. Its not a taboo any more. The horse is long gone, dude.

 

So instead your Mr inexperienced rider is met with a tonne of mixed signals through policies and practices that make things incredibly dangerous for them and the average person out there ducking a few ropes. And that average person, as i keep saying, is increasing in number. The ropes arent working, the system isnt working. Its creating a bunch of Me's who chance it and follow a bunch of YOUR lines into god the hell knows what. One day it might be great, the next time it might get me killed. How can you sleep at night?

 

If you really want to get into the blaming game about who is endangering whom out there i would argue (and have done so routinely) that a thread where people can talk about lines in the slackcountry and the potential hazards to taking them is less dangerous than a policy of turning a blind eye to rope ducking by ski patrol. And this in turn is much less culpable than people breaking trail under ropes and without any other regard for anyone but themselves. These actions not only physically show people where these lines are (no maps or net connection required!). but they dont have the consideration to bother informing anyone who might follow them (which they will), what they might want to watch out for. They dont care about the people following them. Theyre alright. They know their mountain. They know their line. Theyve ridden it a thousand times. They know what to avoid and whats happening. So **** those dudes that follow the. They made their own decision, they can take their own responsibili... oh wait, that makes you sound a bit like me. But only "a bit", because im at least trying to get information in the hands of those people to help them calculate their risks and give thenm an idea of whats actually behind the rope before they decide to follow your trail and get themselves killed.

 

And once again, before it gets off again, the function of this thread was to give a sense of the slackcountry areas. Theres no restriction to contributions. In fact in the OP i said ski patrol were free to talk up the dangers just as people were free to talk them down. The more perspectives the clearer the picture. At no point did i even remotely insinuate that my perspective was the only objective one. Alas, because a few of you got on your high horse, theres only actually a few perspectives posted about anything which means those perspectives carry the appearance of neutrality. Its not my fault, You can contribute, but out of a misguided notion of "safety" (or encouraging dangerous behaviour as i might put it), youre choosing to stay silent... actually that would be fine. Worse, your accusing anyone that dares to even talk about slackcountry as being ignorant, dangerous, and stupid. It must be nice having your cake and eating it. Not only doyou get to pop under ropes and leave a massive trail map for anyone to follow, but you get to sermonise that anyone trying to explain what that line might entail is risking the lives of everyone by talking about it. I dont have to tell them where it is. Youve already shown them.

 

On the other hand you can lay claim that you dont duck ropes any more (har!), but of course i shouldnt talk about slackcountry because im endangering peoples lives as well as ski patroller lives. And in no way actually acknowledge that a) the actual reality that more people are going into slackcountry, and this current system of "rules" and regulations are the very stuff thats creating mixed signals, confusing messages, and serious risk taking. I wouldnt mind so much if the reality was that numbers were going down, and that ski patrols were enorcing teh ropes unilaterally, but neither of this is true. Which indicates that screaming "stop ducking the ropes!!!" isnt offering any solution or practical way of addressing the actual behavior of people on this planet. In fact id dare say its been my posts on this thread, being constructive, balanced, and completely understanding the risks and reasons for people ducking ropes and willing to discuss those, thats helped, dont laugh, to contribute to people rationlising their behaviour and thinking a little more each time they follow random lines under the ropes and into the powder and just how dangerous this can be. I think ive made the case rather well just how many things are working towards encouraging the problem (mixed signals and a culture of silence), which explains the problem (more inexperienced people are heading into the backcountry). Instead of a correction, and another explanation of possible causes, im met with moralizing, hypocrisy and sermonizing.

 

If you duck a rope and you know what youre doing. You are part of the reason i made this thread. Its to counter people like you leaving a massive trail map and offering nothing else to explain to people why they might not want to follow you. If you think i should shut up because talking about the slackcountry means i encourage others to ride it, you havent grasped remotely the reality of the actual situation on the ground and are banging out words through righteous fury with your fingers firmly lockedin your ears. Its my duty to also help you come to an understanding you dont have a clue whats going on and unless you start ackcnowledging the actual situation out there, and the reality of why people duck ropes, you might as well be spouting gibberish. Which of course you are. Moralizing thou shalt not gibberish that makes any sane person who does pop under a rope for the first time say "hey! i didnt actually die after all! that was great! That guy on the net was full of shit, not all ropes are there for a reason (their words - all ropes are there for a reason, just not always for a safety reason), that one seemed arbtrary... maybe others are as well, i should pop under them and find out!" So yeah, thanks for killing them and the ski patrol coming to rescue them and making every skipatrollers day harder by refusing to understand that the picture isnt black and white after all and that by painting it as such they can no longer trust that you actually know whats happening out there.

 

Im still up for beers? Also i have to make a powerpoint, so feel free to leave your response. Ill try my best not to go for the last word on it and let it die. You all win. ill stop defending the appalling idea that as a community we might be able to paint a much better picture of the conditions in slackountry. Clearly our collective knowledge is much less useful than a wall of silence... because this would just encourage people to ride it because as a community we all believe that slackcountry is completely danger free and filled with endless fields of rolling pow and because no one rides slackcountry, we shouldnt make them all start by posting a thread about it.

 

PPS. The tone you should have read thsi post in is pretend righteous indignation. Im only throwing your accusations back in the same manner it was thrown at me. ; )

[Chriselle 158]

Ippy has bionic fingers........and a cute sailor girl uniform...

 

[ippy 66]

it was if it helps, over two sessions So i er, forgot id already typed a page of text before typing another one. I remember looking at it at one point and thinking, hmmm... thats pretty short, thats appropriate! I think i kinda got caught up in the mischief of it.

[tokabochi 9]

Ippy has bionic fingers........and a cute sailor girl uniform...

 

 

Is that slo-mo version?

 

[grungy-gonads 54]

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Maybe resorts should just post copies of your posts and enforce everyone to read them before going beyond the rope, that'd put everyone but the gnarliest off!!

[SnowJapan 178]

Tubby, from experience I can definitely say that asking people to read stuff is generally a futile exercise!

[hellyer 216]

I just started reading this thread this morning

 

Shit!, where has Thursday the 13th of December gone??

[ippy 66]

anyways this is my iwin nuclear post. Just so you know, i am like the Norks! i have millions of these inside my head and i can cleave out 10,000 words from almost nothing! so dont you dare provoke me by posting a reply!

 

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Did you ever lose marks at University for writing over the word count?

[ippy 66]

I was always good. But youll be shocked to find out that i really thought i wouldnt have enough to write a mere 10,000 word dissertation. The 5000 word one was also pretty scary. Im pretty sure my collective works on this here thread at least hit the 5000 word mark. I can pull this shit off in my sleep yo! I really do have a book inside me. Maybe not a particularly interesting one, but a book nonetheless.

[Chriselle 158]

Can I have the audiobook version then...?

[Alexander L 80]

Im having to assume you have your wires massively crossed here. The one place i referenced as a terrain trap was the line coming from yamabiko down to the green runs (karasawa?) on nozawa. Lets assess this line quickly.

 

1. Is it avalanche prone. Yes. Very much so. Not necessarily on the gully youll be riding which isnt more than 25 degrees id suggest, but the sides of it clearly slide. not only are these slopes well within the magic slide angles (20-45) but the rocks are exposed to the sun higher up and there are clear slide paths where nothing grows (in amongst an area full of trees).

2. Is it a terrain trap. Yes. Reasons; 1. The greatest threat here comes from the mountain youre NOT riding and the slide coming onto you. You are in a valley. You are flanked by mountains. Left to right, its landing on your head and having very litle place to go in many parts of that run. 2. In other parts however and if it carries enough force, as it could well do if conditions are primed, (why do you think theres not one, but TWO massive great barriers at the very bottom of it?) its pulling you down to the trees just above karasawa. Would you like to explain against all knowledge of avalanches arguing to the contrary, that a slide leading into a bunch of trees is not a terrain trap?

 

Being a little more respectful ill have to assume you just got your wires crossed, or youre completely unfamiliar with the line. What i wont do is follow your lead and suggest that this means you dont know what a terrain trap is. Though if you havent got your wires crossed i suggest you go take an avi course before you pop under any more ropes

 

As for tommy and tammy story... im pretty sure i said patrol DO care, and they very specifically rope off the area i mentioned BECAUSE its a terrain trap. Now tommy and tammy know much better about which lines of yours and your mates they should be following and which ones will likely be challenging for their level (a calculation they get to make for themselves).

 

Were it not for this thread though tommy and tammy would see you and your mates lines with all your wisdom and experience heading off that way and wonder where they go. Theyd follow you because backcountry traffic is increasing, the industry pushes it, and because its some super secret awesome line filled with powder and yetis, and then when patrol asks tommy why tammy is dead and what the hell they were doing there, he can much more likely answer... "well i saw all these lines so figured it was okay".

 

Straight answer time:

 

1. Do you believe that numbers of people ducking ropes is going up or down?

2. Do you think this is due to a massive discussion about slackcountry and that people are more informed about the dangers and are thus following a natural progression chain, or do you think that there are more people in the slackcountry who dont know what theyre doing and just popping under some ropes because theyre seeing other people pop under some ropes? You said before something about "a site aimed at average riders"... who do you think are making up this increase in traffic? Experienced longstanding backcountry enthusiasts?

3. How do you find lines on a resort youve never ridden? Do you wait until youve been there a few weeks and then get comfy with the locals? Do you buy a topographica map and spend hours carefully studying the lines? or do you do what EVERY OTHER slackcountry kid does and see a bunch of lines heading off under a rope and follow them?

4. If you do what almost no one else does and fastidiously study the course or wait until youre with a guide, well done you on being about 1% of the people out there! If however you do what almost everyone else does... has this behaviour lead you to make occasionally stupid mistakes or do you have a sixth sense and super powers to automatically judge whether a line is safe based on how the rope is put up?

5. When you started out rope ducking, did your success at finding fresh lines and happily plonking you back on teh resort with no consequences make you more or less interested in riding slackcountry?

6. How and why did you start learning about avalanche safety?

7. Did your avalanche safety information make you more or less confident in slackcountry?

8. Do you actually know what a terrain trap is?

9. Do you know when you are AND ARENT in avalanche terrain?

10. Since your motto is find it out by youself, dont you worry that this attitude leads to more danger for people like me, and people below my level having access to no information and told to go find it out ourselves, i dunno, by ducking a rope?

11. Do you ever feel bad that youre super knowledge is risking peoples lives by ducking ropes and giving them a giant route course. At least if you painted it in ms paint and explained the terrain issues you found by pure observation youd be giving at least SOME information about the line and some of the things people would want to consider when they took it? Dont you feel bad that youre sending people into dangerous terrain without any information?

 

And finally... where is this assumption that IM the one deciding which parts are safe and which parts arent, the whole intention of this thread was for multiple perspectives. The attempt failed because people would much rather be holier than thou and shut down any conversation than actually help to inform people? Let me point something that ive said consistently throughout this... i think you can go back to page two when the whole tone of the thread and check me up on it if you like.

 

The problem isnt the rope. The problem are the numbers of lines heading under the ropes (you are culpable for this just as i am, lets not pretend some of us are more responsible, it only leads to massive hypocrisy). The problem is that more people are going into the slackcountry and not knowing anything about it. The problem is that any discussion on slackcountry is assumed to be a glowing endorsement of it. The problem is that these people starting to explore it have no real clue whats going on and which trails are leading them way out of their level. Nor do they know which trails are leading them down a nice little slope which ski patrol think its fine for people to slide on by tacitly turning a blind eye on it. They are taking horrendous chances which jeopardise their safety. The problem, is mixed signals. Its a bunch of noise with no real clear message. If ducking a rope meant you always got your ski pass taken away, then blam! fewer people would be ducking ropes. Not only would there be fewer people ducking ropes, but people tempted to duck ropes wouldnt know where the hell they were going because there would be fewer lines telling them.

 

But then people would go somewhere else and ski resorts understand this. Which is why the policy and approach to the whole issue is an absolute mess. They cant just unrope stuff without actually having to deal with that area in a sensible manner and devote resources to it - EVEN IF - that area is still marked outside of the resort boundaries. But they cant stop people from ducking x, y, z rope because they want them in the resort having fun. So you have a bunch of ropes all looking exactly alike and all signifying completely different things. One simple change might be to color code it, but then you return to the problem of actually having people duck the "safe" ropes and feeling aggrieved that they took that as an indication it was safe. In such cases you might as well just open up that area or rope it off entirely and pull passes.

 

And this is the real crux of this whole discussion:

 

WE DONT KNOW WHICH PARTS ARE (generally) SAFE AND WHICH PARTS ARE VERY DANGEROUS BECAUSE NO ONE IS WILLING TO SAY. It seems to be some kind of tacit hope that by not saying, teh responsibility is increased to make their own decision, and thus people will stick with the nice safe line on the groomers. I keep saying this: This approach is dead. Numbers in the slackcountry are going up and this in turn encourages others to try out slackcountry. Theyre not doing it because of threads on teh internet. Theyre doing it because they are seeing a bunch of lines head off that way and want to be a part of the super secret. Were numbers going down then "shut up ipps!" would be fair. But theye not. They are increasing,and dramatically so. Thus adopting the policy of silence and hoping the taboo holds i will strongly argue endangers people far more than actually talking about it. Its not a taboo any more. The horse is long gone, dude.

 

So instead your Mr inexperienced rider is met with a tonne of mixed signals through policies and practices that make things incredibly dangerous for them and the average person out there ducking a few ropes. And that average person, as i keep saying, is increasing in number. The ropes arent working, the system isnt working. Its creating a bunch of Me's who chance it and follow a bunch of YOUR lines into god the hell knows what. One day it might be great, the next time it might get me killed. How can you sleep at night?

 

If you really want to get into the blaming game about who is endangering whom out there i would argue (and have done so routinely) that a thread where people can talk about lines in the slackcountry and the potential hazards to taking them is less dangerous than a policy of turning a blind eye to rope ducking by ski patrol. And this in turn is much less culpable than people breaking trail under ropes and without any other regard for anyone but themselves. These actions not only physically show people where these lines are (no maps or net connection required!). but they dont have the consideration to bother informing anyone who might follow them (which they will), what they might want to watch out for. They dont care about the people following them. Theyre alright. They know their mountain. They know their line. Theyve ridden it a thousand times. They know what to avoid and whats happening. So **** those dudes that follow the. They made their own decision, they can take their own responsibili... oh wait, that makes you sound a bit like me. But only "a bit", because im at least trying to get information in the hands of those people to help them calculate their risks and give thenm an idea of whats actually behind the rope before they decide to follow your trail and get themselves killed.

 

And once again, before it gets off again, the function of this thread was to give a sense of the slackcountry areas. Theres no restriction to contributions. In fact in the OP i said ski patrol were free to talk up the dangers just as people were free to talk them down. The more perspectives the clearer the picture. At no point did i even remotely insinuate that my perspective was the only objective one. Alas, because a few of you got on your high horse, theres only actually a few perspectives posted about anything which means those perspectives carry the appearance of neutrality. Its not my fault, You can contribute, but out of a misguided notion of "safety" (or encouraging dangerous behaviour as i might put it), youre choosing to stay silent... actually that would be fine. Worse, your accusing anyone that dares to even talk about slackcountry as being ignorant, dangerous, and stupid. It must be nice having your cake and eating it. Not only doyou get to pop under ropes and leave a massive trail map for anyone to follow, but you get to sermonise that anyone trying to explain what that line might entail is risking the lives of everyone by talking about it. I dont have to tell them where it is. Youve already shown them.

 

On the other hand you can lay claim that you dont duck ropes any more (har!), but of course i shouldnt talk about slackcountry because im endangering peoples lives as well as ski patroller lives. And in no way actually acknowledge that a) the actual reality that more people are going into slackcountry, and this current system of "rules" and regulations are the very stuff thats creating mixed signals, confusing messages, and serious risk taking. I wouldnt mind so much if the reality was that numbers were going down, and that ski patrols were enorcing teh ropes unilaterally, but neither of this is true. Which indicates that screaming "stop ducking the ropes!!!" isnt offering any solution or practical way of addressing the actual behavior of people on this planet. In fact id dare say its been my posts on this thread, being constructive, balanced, and completely understanding the risks and reasons for people ducking ropes and willing to discuss those, thats helped, dont laugh, to contribute to people rationlising their behaviour and thinking a little more each time they follow random lines under the ropes and into the powder and just how dangerous this can be. I think ive made the case rather well just how many things are working towards encouraging the problem (mixed signals and a culture of silence), which explains the problem (more inexperienced people are heading into the backcountry). Instead of a correction, and another explanation of possible causes, im met with moralizing, hypocrisy and sermonizing.

 

If you duck a rope and you know what youre doing. You are part of the reason i made this thread. Its to counter people like you leaving a massive trail map and offering nothing else to explain to people why they might not want to follow you. If you think i should shut up because talking about the slackcountry means i encourage others to ride it, you havent grasped remotely the reality of the actual situation on the ground and are banging out words through righteous fury with your fingers firmly lockedin your ears. Its my duty to also help you come to an understanding you dont have a clue whats going on and unless you start ackcnowledging the actual situation out there, and the reality of why people duck ropes, you might as well be spouting gibberish. Which of course you are. Moralizing thou shalt not gibberish that makes any sane person who does pop under a rope for the first time say "hey! i didnt actually die after all! that was great! That guy on the net was full of shit, not all ropes are there for a reason (their words - all ropes are there for a reason, just not always for a safety reason), that one seemed arbtrary... maybe others are as well, i should pop under them and find out!" So yeah, thanks for killing them and the ski patrol coming to rescue them and making every skipatrollers day harder by refusing to understand that the picture isnt black and white after all and that by painting it as such they can no longer trust that you actually know whats happening out there.

 

Im still up for beers? Also i have to make a powerpoint, so feel free to leave your response. Ill try my best not to go for the last word on it and let it die. You all win. ill stop defending the appalling idea that as a community we might be able to paint a much better picture of the conditions in slackountry. Clearly our collective knowledge is much less useful than a wall of silence... because this would just encourage people to ride it because as a community we all believe that slackcountry is completely danger free and filled with endless fields of rolling pow and because no one rides slackcountry, we shouldnt make them all start by posting a thread about it.

 

PPS. The tone you should have read thsi post in is pretend righteous indignation. Im only throwing your accusations back in the same manner it was thrown at me. ; )

 

not reading that.

[muikabochi 208]

[NoFakie 45]

All you have to do is fall through some snow over a stream and you're in trouble.

This can happen on a slope that will never see an avalanche and can appear to be very safe.

[rider69 18]

I have taken more Avi courses than I care to remember. Most likely im one of the most experienced on this forum have been

skiing Backcountry since 1996.

You write so much I not going to waste my time reading something that long. I gave up after 30 secs.

 

Im done Ive made my points. You dont have the education or knowledge to post which rope is ok to duck.

[sanjo 2]

You write so much I not going to waste my time reading something that long. I gave up after 30 secs.

 

Bet you did read it

[Tubby Beaver 209]

All you have to do is fall through some snow over a stream and you're in trouble.

This can happen on a slope that will never see an avalanche and can appear to be very safe.

 

This is my greatest fear.....last Saturday at Kagura, with the snow cover not the thickest, near the bottom of the hooded quad, under the lift is one Run I've done plenty times, but at the bottom the stream was still visible.....I've always wondered if there was a stream there but until Saturday I didn't know

[CnnmnSchnpps 0]

I'm with rider69 on this one. More information doesn't mean better information. There's no shortcut to good BC knowledge, and an Internet forum isn't the place to get it

 

That being said, I think a thread telling people where absolutely not to go would be useful. Explore the rest safely as you would in a BC setting. Maybe the word side country is the culprit here.

 

In that spirit, I have this to contribute from personal experience. If you hike to the top of Mae-Yama from Akakan, don't drop off skiers left. It was a massive ordeal to get out miles away at Tsubame onsen, complete with sketchy snow bridges over a pretty big river. Never again

[onehunga 26]

I have taken more Avi courses than I care to remember. Most likely im one of the most experienced on this forum have been

skiing Backcountry since 1996.

You write so much I not going to waste my time reading something that long. I gave up after 30 secs.

 

Im done Ive made my points. You dont have the education or knowledge to post which rope is ok to duck.

 

I don't think anyone except the ski patrol at the actual resort has the knowledge of which rope is OK to duck, but what I get from reading all the posts in this thread is that people are ducking the ropes. Some who duck them are experienced skiers/boaders with training and gear for the conditions, and some are Mr/Mrs Average who want to find the great snow they saw on the youtube video last week.

 

The point is that dispite the ropes, the pulling of passes and the bollocking from ski patrols, people will jump ropes. Maybe a little more info about why the rope is there will educate and maybe prevent an accident.

 

Not talking about jumping ropes to get to the slack country isn't going to stop it happening, however much some people wish/want.

 

The more info out there the better prepared people can be.