JA2340 16 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 But, from a business point of view, the company is not there to make a loss, is it? So ... it is logical that they seek ways to increase profitability, if only for the sake of the shareholders. IF (and this is purely hypothetical, since I do not own shares in ANYTHING) I had shares on a skijo, I'd want a return on investment at something higher than the bank would pay on a savings account - else you're better off with the money sitting in the bank earning bugger all! So, they either need to look to ways to get the public more interested in the sport, thus increasing visitor days and consequently income, OR increase the slice of the discretionary spending that gets spent in the skijo. Alternatives might include running the lifts only when there are sufficient numbers on slope to warrant the costs (including staff, fuel/electricity and other operational costs) or possibly to open the area for a year-round operation and create some income in the "off" season. Not a business person, but just my JPY20! Link to post Share on other sites
ippy 66 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It doesnt feel that cheap to be honest. When you factor in the gear, transport, lift prices, food, and accommodation, its a ridiculously expensive sport. I dunno if i wouldnt go if hakuba for example started charging 5500 yen a day or 6000 yen a day. Id probably go to ryuoo or myoko instead. But if it was a wholesale increase to like 10,000 yen a day for most decent sized resorts, then nah, im pretty much out. Not by choice, but i just couldnt afford it. Id maybe go, but itd be less and only on days when they had massive cheap deals. Then again, maybe i could just invest in a splitboard set up and poach the backcountry with a big FU to teh resort (well... aside that one lift run that gets me to the top of their hill). But itll be a huge screw off after that point, you mark my (famous last) words! Link to post Share on other sites
griller 9 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm sure most people understand the concept of them needing to get enough money to run their business, but that doesn't mean people want or can spend more. Quite obviously most people are not prepared to do that. Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Alternatives might include running the lifts only when there are sufficient numbers on slope to warrant the costs (including staff, fuel/electricity and other operational costs) or possibly to open the area for a year-round operation and create some income in the "off" season. Some resorts I know try that - and they do it badly. Case in point Kandatsu Kogen in Yuzawa. Go on a weekday and half the mountain is closed, including the best bit. Should be cheaper if you are cutting down services like that, if you ask me. At somewhere like Naeba it doesn't send the most positive of messages when they cut down on services year on year to the bare minimum. Some places just come across as a bit sad and desperate. It must be difficult, for sure but I have no answers. As for the off season - ski resorts would love to do that. But for most of them, in the real world, its an impossible dream. Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Alternatives might include running the lifts only when there are sufficient numbers on slope to warrant the costs (including staff, fuel/electricity and other operational costs) or possibly to open the area for a year-round operation and create some income in the "off" season. Some resorts I know try that - and they do it badly. Case in point Kandatsu Kogen in Yuzawa. Go on a weekday and half the mountain is closed, including the best bit. Should be cheaper if you are cutting down services like that, if you ask me. At somewhere like Naeba it doesn't send the most positive of messages when they cut down on services year on year to the bare minimum. Some places just come across as a bit sad and desperate. It must be difficult, for sure but I have no answers. As for the off season - ski resorts would love to do that. But for most of them, in the real world, its an impossible dream. Resorts could possible learn a few lessons from the magnificent Mt Granview. Link to post Share on other sites
rider69 18 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Nobody is happy with prices going up but something has to give. You cant just give things away. The prices have not increased for years. Raising the price a few yen may drive a few people away but the extra revenue will out way that decrease in skiers. Link to post Share on other sites
iiyamadude 6 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 No-one is saying that there isn't a need for something to give. But from the comments gathered on here so far, out of all the people responding you seem to be the only one prepared to pay more without decreasing how many times you go out. Good for you. I'd likely have to just go less. I wouldn't suddenly magically be finding extra money, especially as the basic cost of living is on it's way up quite considerably here in Japan now and in the near future. I'd probably be less likely to eat out as well when I was there, and probably not stay over either rather stretch my day trips. That doesn't seems too positive a reaction for the argument of increasing prices does it. Link to post Share on other sites
@tokyo 14 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It doesnt feel that cheap to be honest. Agree. No doubt people will come on now and tell us how cheap it is compared with other countries. To which I say.... irrelevant. For me anyway. I'm in Japan, not the US. The cost of a ticket there has nothing to do with me and my budget. If prices go up somewhere, I'll probably choose a skijo where they remain cheaper. Thats the great thing about Japan - so many places and so much choice!! Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 If prices go up somewhere, I'll probably choose a skijo where they remain cheaper. Thats the great thing about Japan - so many places and so much choice!! Here's a very important point. With such a large number of great ski resort hills to choose from, other than some hardcore loyalists or interested parties, if a skijo suddenly became more expensive then many people would just go somewhere else. Simples. The resort pushing those people out - and lets remember the younger crowd have less to spend as well - would lose out on numbers, the whole place would look sadder and businesses around the resort would also suffer. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 An interesting kind of related read from last season http://www.snowjapanforums.com/index.php/topic/20658-the-riddle-of-the-japanese-ski-economy/ Link to post Share on other sites
JellyBelly 1 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Raising the price a few yen may drive a few people away but the extra revenue will out way that decrease in skiers. If Happo increased from 4,600 yen to 4,605 yen, I might still go. I would draw the limit at 4,650 yen though. That's just getting silly. Link to post Share on other sites
ippy 66 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Dear customers: Our operating costs last year was X We took in Y money from sales, advertising and leases. These figures have been published here: http://www.brokeskijo.com X - Y = minus cash. We need more money. We probably need to raise lift prices by around 10%. Gommen, but you can see the figures. Its ither that or we shut down some of the lifts; shorten the length of the season; remove discounted ticket prices; sell off the land for redevelopment; build a mega casino; or just come chapping door to door for some spare cash. Your mate, Ipps (boss of nagano). Link to post Share on other sites
HoTRoD 2 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Widespread increase in prices isn't going to happen. And like others have said, with so many places closeby to practically anywhere, the ones that did would simply lose out on numbers. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Well, certainly Rider69 is coming from a different place than most of us. He lives at the foot of a ski resort which means no accommodation and transportation costs (and probably quite a bit less on food too). I have to pay 8000¥ road toll (min), 12,000¥ gas (min), 3000¥/person/ day for food (min) and at least 4,000¥/person/night accommodation before I even think about buying a lift ticket for the day. Skiing/boarding is only really cheap for people in Rider's kind of situation. With that in mind, ski resorts should charge a premium on people who live nearby... or jack up the prices on seasons tickets (or even do away with them completely). That way people who live near resorts end up paying the same as people who are coming from further away. Seems fair, doesn't it? Link to post Share on other sites
Hokkaidough 4 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 BM for president!! Great idea. Locals should get a taste of how expensive it is for people visiting and then they might think differently. Link to post Share on other sites
BagOfCrisps 24 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Very good reasoning. Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I totally agree, as long as I can get a discount for helping out taking photos and posting them on SJ! Link to post Share on other sites
rider69 18 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Then there would be no locals to begin with and no resort to play on. As most people know who live in small towns you give up money to be able to play or have a life. Should pass prices rise sure if the resort raises prices then the pass price should go up. The idea of a seasons pass is to secure revenue before going into the season, so as not to bleed money right off the start. I want to see the resorts thrive and right now we are in a price war. See which resort can survive the longest. At the end of the day JA bank or whatever local bank is keeping these resorts afloat will have to make a choice. Dont think that Naeba for example cant close. Is that a good thing? Does that help that area. Are there serious flaws in the J-Resort model sure there are and there are many. Most of the flaws cant be even looked at untill there are major investments. Link to post Share on other sites
iiyamadude 6 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Then there would be no locals to begin with and no resort to play on. Why not? How much do you spend on lift tickets each season? Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Seriously though, seasons passes to Happo are like 65,000¥ (or 55,000¥ for early bird). That means you only have to go like 14 times to break even. I'll bet you go a LOT more than that. I would say that something like 100,000¥-130,000¥ for a season pass makes more sense. It would certainly effect the resorts bottom line of daily visitors a lot less than raising single day tickets because locals will still get good value from it. If you are the kind of guy who goes 50 times a season (a somewhat conservative number when I think about how many times some of my local friends who have seasons passes go each year) than effectively you are only paying 1,300 per day... Which seems pretty damn cheap compared to the 4,600 I pay each time. Link to post Share on other sites
ippy 66 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 You know lots of people get those passes complimentary as well, right? Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 GN always says it but the problem is that there is no money in running lifts. The o/s solution is for the same company to provide accom, ski lessons, ski rental, restaurants, pubs etc.etc. Back in the day, the ski lift companies had so many customers and made so much money they were happy for other people to run the ski school, the concessions, and accom. With fewer customers and high energy prices, you can't follow that model and make money.They have to grab as much of the total spend as possible because its the other areas where the money is made. The ski lifts just get people to come in the first place. Through preferential treatment at the resort, they could easily get more people to choose the official hotel, the official ski school, the official rental, etc. etc. Customers remain free to choose other providers, but they don't get the same treatment when they're at the hill. They could even tailor it to affect only the top 20% of spenders, so that ordinary customers barely notice. Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 you give up money to be able to play or have a life And so you want the rest of us to subsidize that? Sorry, but I give up a lot to live in central Tokyo, and then as BM noted have to pay a fortune just to get to the mountain, and still have almost no chance of getting 50+ days in a season. You make your choice to live where you live, accept the good/bad that goes with that choice. If some mountains close down for economic reasons, so be it. Japan has far too many one- and two-lift, 100-meter vertical ``ski areas'' anyway -- not saying these are necessarily unworthy, but if they can't attract enough customers to survive they should close down. Link to post Share on other sites
rider69 18 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Seasons passes are what they are a way to get cash flow. Would I pay more for a pass yes. At what price I would protest I dont know. They dont give away passes here to locals I can tell you that. Local econmics have to be different and have to foster future growth in the sports which make the community money. You would laugh and some of the salaries here, we get time though lots more time. I aggree that many small places need to be closed but I dont think we are really talking about them. When I first skied in Japan in 1996 the price was pretty much what it is today. The lift lines were very long then very long. Skied at Naeba during the peak too that was quite crazy. Pretty much the same price. To put it this way Nozawa on a weekend has terrible lineups at the gondola. Would it be beter to make more per skier visit say modest 10% increase but and have the numbers drop down say by 5%? Would this make overall skier satisfaction better? How about Cortina the ski deal for pizza or lunch for 1000 yen plus ski rental discount and onsen for 3800 max total package has made cortina a huge hit with tree lovers. The place is packed mid week after a storm. Would it be better to charge 4500 yen for that deal and get less skiers but make more money? My budget is pretty fixed If ticket prices did rise I wouldnt stop skiing but would have to cut in other areas. Using my gear longer or really hunting down deals. Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 If you first skied in Japan in 1996 you've never seen a real lift line! Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts