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Originally Posted By: JA

Also, I'd be interested to see any stats (with appropriate acknowledgement and sources) around the effect on the neck and upper spine of the additional weight of the helmet. I suspect (and have absolutely zero proof) that the extra weight may exacerbate the effects of inertia on the neck of any sudden change of direction, let alone sudden stops.


This point is often brought up as an argument against wearing helmets. This has been examined by laboratory testing, computer simulations and also out in the field and there is no evidence that wearing a helmet increases the risk of neck injury. For example, you could check out this recent article in the American Journal of Epidemiology:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/04/20/aje.kwq039.abstract
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Originally Posted By: TropicalPow

TB, I was listening to a radio program on the long drive back from work last night. He was talking about the social media and he said how normally pleasant people hide behind the anonymity of forums, saying things they would normally not say directly to a person in a normal social situation.

In another ski forum a writer wondered why these forums always deteriorate into slanging matches, when surely as a group of supposedly like minded people ,who share the love of snow ,the mountains and in this case Japan we can't just discuss these subjects without chest puffing.

The guy on the radio program said that half of the reason for the conflicts on forums,is it's very hard to pick the difference between sarcasm and horseplay,

So TB ,gee ,I love your sense of humour and horseply man , you crack me up [ helmet thread link]


Didn't realise you're actual name was Tropical

wakaranai
right back at you. Inferring that to make the informed choice to wear a helmet is in some way more grown up than those who choose not to.

There was no chest puffing from me, if you look I haven't made a comment about wearing or not wearing one, my comment was that it was another thing for insurance companies to hide behind paying out for health coverage. Only chest puffing was yours with your mature stance as a grownup
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I usually wear one at home in Canada, but never brought it with me to Japan (saving space)

 

Whilst there's no doubt they save a few bumps and arguablly lives, I think most people agree that it should be up to the individual whether to wear one or not.

Just like any protective padding I suppose - although I do understand why some resort's policies require them to be worn when riding the park. (Do any of them still do that?)

I've also seen some resorts terrain park's that don't have any helmet policy, but have outlawed 'inverted' manoeveers (sigh!)

 

Anyway, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that insurance company have struck a deal with one of the big name helmet manufacturers. Look for the links to them on their websites if it get's approved!

Plenty of other insurance companies to chose from anyway. Their loss will be another's gain.

 

Now, which new hat to wear this weekend....

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So if all the non-helmet wearers are indeed safe without helmets then why all the concern about an insurance company choosing not to insure you for head injury?

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Because insurance company is there for business. Making money. Not a charitable organization that is there for you if shit happens. They want to make sure that you are doing your part to prevent the situation that you don´t want to be ( ie: don´t want to pay for a higher premium ) and they don´t want to be ( small profit for a lot of risk). Safety is not the issue. More chance that you will suffer a heavier blow if you don´t wear a helmet and hit your head. There will be a point that the helmet is not going to make a difference.

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By the way,

When I used to ski, I never wore a helmet.

Now I snowboard, I wear one. But does that make me wear a helmet when I go back to ski? I don´t know.

When I skidive, paraglide, sometimes I don´t wear one.

Really, It is personal choice. It´s not a social issue. wink

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but surely if you believe that you are safe from receiveing a head injury without a helmet then you are also safe from having to pay for a head injury and the loss of insurance cover is then a moot point.

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Originally Posted By: Captain Stag
but surely if you believe that you are safe from receiveing a head injury without a helmet then you are also safe from having to pay for a head injury and the loss of insurance cover is then a moot point.


Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

Took pages though.
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my beef is with Private Insurance......they are always trying to wriggle out of paying up for the coverage that people believe they have paid for and the helmet clause is just another way for them to keep their money.

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But Tubby, as I said earlier with the example of #3s now healed broken leg - rightly or wrongly the insurers decided that THAT was too high a risk for them and excluded it.

He was not insured for any damaged to his teeth and braces (because he was having braces work done at the time), nor was he insured for any break to his tib or fib lower right leg.

Was there good reason for it?

I did not think so.

But obviously the insurance underwriters or some other person with power thought that there was good enough reason to exclude it.

 

We sucked it up and took the insurance anyway, knowing that either of those things was a small small risk. There was nothing we could do to alter the coverage.

 

People who choose not to wear a helmet will be faced with the choices:

1) Suck it up like the rest of us who have been dealt exclusions; or

2) Stick a helmet on their heads if they really want the coverage.

At least they have the choice to take the exclusion or not - we didn't.

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I used to ride a long snowboard (174cm) and I religiously wore a helmet while on it; riding it without it through the trees was a deadwish. Every time I switched to a shorter board, I religiously took it off. If it was on my head, I tended to overcompensate a lot and ended up conking trees and branches left and right.

 

When I get home I'll see if I can post a clip of me hitting a tree at full speed. It was awesome biggrin

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My helmet is great, it has a heap of vents you can control so can be cooler then a beanie when you need it to be and warmer when you need it.

 

Now back to the point of the thread. Well just put it to the test, being a scientist I ran an experiment. That's what we do. No I didnt purposely go smack my head as some might hope smile

 

So yesterday in my helmet I was riding in the trees and enjoying it. Today no helmet and I wasn't game to get in there. Started to and pulled back.

 

Later today will be back in a helmet.

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Its important to realise you are not safe from head injuries when wearing a helmet - a moderate to high speed head on collision with a tree will likely be 5-10 times or more too great a force for the helmet to protect you. You would need a helmet 6 inches thick with current technology. You are just SAFER wearing one - it can offer you protection in the event of a lower speed collision with a tree or glancing blow or impacts with the surface of the snow which accounts for most head injuries.

I think that adults are quite capable of deciding for themselves whether or not they want to wear a helmet and I dont really think its necessary for their use to be enforced.

I also agree with TB and Mamabear that insurance companies are cynical money grabbing b*$£%rds and will do anything to avoid paying out - stiff regulation of these companies is required. In the UK we have the NHS, which despite being far from perfect in many respects, I would much rather have than the systems they have in some other countries.

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TB, reread what I originally said, nowhere did I infer that it was more grownup to wear a helmet , just meant as grownups we have to make these decisions all the time.

 

I don't like insurance companies anymore than you do, all I've read so far that some insurance companies are proposing that they won't cover you for head injuries if you are not wearing a helmet.

 

Mamabears example of one of her boys being refuseded coverage for the old leg injury [ which I have always been told heal stronger than they were before] now thats more illogical.

 

Good on Panhead ,going the extra mile for science.

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Originally Posted By: Mr Wiggles
People are free to judge the helmet issue, but yeah, insurance companies will get out of paying for anything if they can.


that is all my views on this thread. I think that is fundamentally wrong, but we have had the Private Health Insurance vs Social Health Insurance before (which is slightly different to what is being said here) but this clause just triggered another bout of hatred towards the money grubbing health insurance companies.
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Lots of clauses like that though Tubby.

In travel insurance, health insurance, life insurance....

I understand risk minimization but I do think they take to too far, so that it verges on the ridiculous and the mean.

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I know......but thats my point. I'm not really bothered what the clauses are, I'm just against private healthcare in general as I don't feel that the health of a person comes first, they only think about how they can save/make more money.

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Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver
I know......but thats my point. I'm not really bothered what the clauses are, I'm just against private healthcare in general as I don't feel that the health of a person comes first, they only think about how they can save/make more money.

I see the similarities TB, but private health care is a totally different topic.

Private health care is different across different countries, and different dependent also on what the state provides as a basic health care system.

Personally I would not be without private health insurance in Australia, although I am able to get state provided health care through our medicare system. The waiting lists are too long, and damage and death can result from the long wait times. There is also no choice of surgeon, which in a number of friends state funded operations recently was a HUGE issue - almost costing a friend his life. There is no coverage for dental, and alternative medicine unless you are privately covered. By me (and others that choose to take up private health insurance) using a private system we are not taking places on lists and funds set aside for others using state funded health care.

Like helmets - it is a matter of choice. A choice all adults make every day. Thankfully my private health insurer has a transition between child and adult that will allow for them to be covered by parents for a few years after turning 18, because that magic birthday does not maketh the adult!! LOL

Is it cheeky for travel insurers to add this clause about helmets? I think so. There is no over whelming research evidence that helmets make a significant difference. But as I said before it is a clause you have choices with.
1) accept the exclusion.
2) wear the helmet.
that is more than you get for any other exclusion!!
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from my point of view there is little difference in it, you pay a company to provide health cover, the cover does not come from the Government no questions asked so in my book thats Private Healthcare. Healthcare Insurers are notoriously bad at wriggling out of paying and thats what winds me up no end

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Good for you! You know you don't have to justify why you wear a helmet. You want to wear one go right ahead. I couldn't care less why you choose to. Just like I hope others couldn't care less why I choose not to...

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