Slippery Jim 65 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Branching off from the flag wavers' pay topic: Just what services do SJers thing should actually be paid through taxation? I'd think most people would include the basics: police/fire/water & sewage/road maintenance (with or without flag wavers)/schools/ski lifts... But what else do you want your taxex paying for? Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Sports facilities, maintenance of parks and green spaces, cultural events and education programs like language training or life skills (ex. reeducation for the unemployed)... As an example, our city gym is subsidized so that we only pay 100Â¥ each time we use it and it has pretty good equipment... public swimming pool is the same. I'm undecided about things like road maintenance though... I kind of think private companies would do a better more efficient job of that with less chance for nasty scams or pork barrel projects. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Oh, and I forgot to mention the big one... health care for everyone!!! (yes, even smokers! ) Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Libraries too. Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted October 9, 2010 Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 OK, I'll play nasty devil's advocate here. Why should I pay additional taxes to cover your gym/pool use, your love of post-impressionist painting, your reading habit, or your desire to learn enough Turkish to order doner kebabs in Cappadoccia? Not that I don't think those are all worthwhile endeavors for you, but why should the cost come out of my wallet? For that matter, you're a 160cm 150kg mac-burger and supersize the coke pls diabetic alcoholic 3-pack a day smoker, and you want the rest of us to pay for your quadruple bypass! Well sure, private companies should be contracted to actually perform the road maintenance, but it still has to be paid for. Is my desire to walk on maintained pavement in the general public interest? Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 to counteract your anti-public healthcare stance you could levy higher taxes on products which are deemed to be a danger to peoples health if taken to extreme, funneling the extra tax back into the public healthcare so that the people who are quaffing these products are contributing more than those who do not, thus payng for their added healthcare expense. I know you are playing devils advocate and actually I'm not sure that you are American, BUT I really don't get why the US is aganst Governement funded healthcare for all. We've been over this before but I still can't see why Americans (in the general sense) get all hysteric when centralised Health care is mentioned. It appears to me to associated with the word "socialised" that was demonised by the US Governemnt during the cold war as being the first step on the way to some far left Communist takeover of body and mind Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver to counteract your anti-public healthcare stance you could levy higher taxes on products which are deemed to be a danger to peoples health if taken to extreme, funneling the extra tax back into the public healthcare so that the people who are quaffing these products are contributing more than those who do not, thus payng for their added healthcare expense. I know you are playing devils advocate and actually I'm not sure that you are American, BUT I really don't get why the US is aganst Governement funded healthcare for all. We've been over this before but I still can't see why Americans (in the general sense) get all hysteric when centralised Health care is mentioned. It appears to me to associated with the word "socialised" that was demonised by the US Governemnt during the cold war as being the first step on the way to some far left Communist takeover of body and mind TB, it's a paradox within itself. The big guys actually have the people it would benefit (every day citizens) convinced that it is a bad thing. Welcome to the US and the world of polarized political talking points. Basically people attached the name Obamacare to it so it is destined to fail. It's sad, but it's how it works here. People are much more enticed by catchy jingles and supposed historic values of freedom than logic. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 The point I was trying to make about the road maintenance was that once it's built it can be sold (at profit) to a company that then maintains it. This BS you see at the end of every year here in Japan when they start tearing up the roads and re-patching them just to justify the city budget is beyond ridiculous and should be considered theft. As for the other arguments... well, those services are open to anybody and you can choose to use it or not. I don't walk down the sidewalk so why should I pay for your pavement... I don't drive down the street so why should I pay for your road... I don't live in your neighbourhood so why should I pay for your street lights, signs, manhole covers... I don't ride the train so why should I pay for part of your ticket... I don't drink milk so why should the government subsidize dairy farmers... The same premise is true about the health care argument. The example you gave above is far enough and it seems strange that someone who makes stupid decisions about their health ends up costing the system. But if we extend that argument then we get people saying things like "Hey, I don't ride a bicycle so why should I pay when you fall down and hurt yourself?" or "I don't drink so screw all you guys who get liver disease" etc etc... What people who make those kinds of arguments seem to forget is that society (by extension the civilization we have built up over the years) depends on the movement of goods and services. The small sacrifice that we make when we pay taxes helps to get groceries in the store, kids in school etc etc... and if you think that you aren't getting your far share of things then you'd be in for a rude awakening when you try and get by in a city (or anywhere really) without using anything that taxes have helped to build. The real problem in my mind isn't paying taxes it's the misuse and mismanagement of taxes by incompetent or corrupt people. Basically, you don't want to pay for my gym then I don't want to pay for your road and we both lose out... You don't want to pay taxes or use any services paid for by taxes then go ahead and feel free to move to back into a cave. I'll guarantee that somewhere along the way, whether it's the street leading to your house, the lumber used to make you house, the technology used to make it earthquake resistant, etc taxes have been used to make it possible. And in the grand scheme of things there's no way that you'd be able to afford it on your own unless you're one of the 1% of millionaires out there. We've been able to accomplish these great feats in our civilization because everyone pitches in together to make it happen. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 that happens everywhere with end of year budgets, very wasteful I know, but unless they spend it, they don't get it again. I agree that surely there has to be a better system. Although privitisation of it doesn't always work. In Scotland road works has been privatised, its run by a company called BEAR, which is just the old mob of previously government workers now doing it for themselves, they are responsible for maintenence of the road surface and surrounding banks of all inter-city hghways. There always seems to be roadworks nowadays and the embankments which were kept tidy are now often overgrown and unkempt. Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Thank you for saving me time to write that BM. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver that happens everywhere with end of year budgets, very wasteful I know, but unless they spend it, they don't get it again. I agree that surely there has to be a better system. Although privitisation of it doesn't always work. In Scotland road works has been privatised, its run by a company called BEAR, which is just the old mob of previously government workers now doing it for themselves, they are responsible for maintenence of the road surface and surrounding banks of all inter-city hghways. There always seems to be roadworks nowadays and the embankments which were kept tidy and often overgrown and unkempt. It doesn't happen everywhere. Just places with corrupt and incompetent bureaucracies that have no vision for the future. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 well the UK government is also corrupt Link to post Share on other sites
bobby12 0 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 I'd like my tax not to go into the pocket of corrupt officials, but I dont think there are many countries I can run to to prevent that happening. It disgusts me when politicians get caught stealing and they just have to say sorry or pay a small fine and it is all over, they should get they hands cut off and banned from public service for life at the very least, for their abuse of trust. Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted October 10, 2010 Author Share Posted October 10, 2010 Again, I'm playing DA here. Anything I write may or may not reflect my personal opinion. Black Mountain, in response: Much of what you say is true, but is there no line between those services that support the whole of a society and those that (to be nasty about it) milk the public tit for the benefit of a small group of enthusiasts? Modern society quite obviously depends on roads for the distribution of goods and other services; scientific R&D is of obvious benefit, if not to every last soul at least to 99.975% of us. Using taxes to fund, let's say a high-speed quad chairlift from the 5th station to the 3,000-meter level on Mt Fuji...well, I'm sure none here would have a problem with that but I bet there are plenty who would. Perhaps the question isn't so much Where but How to draw the line between legitimate tax funding and the pork barrel. Tubby: Gee, mate, howdja ever guess? I'm reasonably happy with Japan's national health insurance scheme. Nothing's perfect, but in the main it works well enough. As far as the U.S. goes, I have no answer for you. Health care there seems to be excellent for those with good insurance, probably a bit of a nightmare of queuing up for hours for those who don't. Anything I said on it would be very colored by personal and family/friends experience (on both sides) so hardly impartial. I would say that IMHO a good part of the problem in the U.S. is caused by absurd damages awards that have so inflated the cost of malpractice insurance as to force medical staff into a full-court CYA approach to treatment. And I think there may be no easy way to fix that. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 What is your opinion then SJ? Link to post Share on other sites
SnowJapan Admin SnowJapan 178 Posted October 10, 2010 SnowJapan Admin Share Posted October 10, 2010 Me? I think some funds should be used to help us get our work done! Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver well the UK government is also corrupt If its just Scottish roads though, wouldn't that be a Scottish Parliament decision.... Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Government issue CARS for all. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: SJ-David Me? I think some funds should be used to help us get our work done! You get enough from our yearly memberships (and we know you would spend money on doughnuts and yakitori instead!) Link to post Share on other sites
SnowJapan Admin SnowJapan 178 Posted October 10, 2010 SnowJapan Admin Share Posted October 10, 2010 Diets all round needed here once we finish this lot up. Lots and lots of things being scoffed. Difficult to control in these situations. Sorry, off topic!! Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 We try our best to stay out of these situations, but from time to time we are compelled to step in and just stop this nonesense. Please stay on topic!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: Mr Wiggles Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver well the UK government is also corrupt If its just Scottish roads though, wouldn't that be a Scottish Parliament decision.... I dunno if roads come under the Scottish Parliament or not but I didn't just mean for roads. Having worked for my local authority and seeing how they were using whatever money was left come the end of the fiscal year, I doubt there is much difference in any other local authority in the UK, hence my post. Link to post Share on other sites
SnowJapan Admin SnowJapan 178 Posted October 10, 2010 SnowJapan Admin Share Posted October 10, 2010 Will try to remember! Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Don't really want to get bogged down this topic this weekend - got kiddies birthday's, rugby functions and genealogy research to complete, BUT... briefly... Government can provide good quality health care to those who can not afford it, only if those who can afford to take out private health insurance and pay their way do so. Shites me no end when a high income earner rocks up to a public hospital outpatients for a non urgent matter just so they don't have to 'pay'. No...we all then pay... I believe in the safety net. I believe in looking after those who can not do for themselves through whatever reason. But we can't all live off the fat of the 'government' - where does the budget come from? Yup our taxes. Personally I also think the same about education. Yes I think the minimum education $ should be provided to whatever education institution has that child - but that instead of spreading the extra dollar among private and state schools, give it to the state run schools that are battling. Roads certainly need attention. Good roads = less accidents. But we could most definitely do with less focus groups on the rights of Gay Whales Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted October 10, 2010 Author Share Posted October 10, 2010 Donuts & yakitori -- two of the major food groups, add alcohol & chocolate and you've got a perfectly balanced diet! Link to post Share on other sites
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