Resorts having trouble working out how to succeed...

[Go Native 70]

Trends can be created though Jynxx with good marketing. It's absolutely true that as people get older they drop out of things they did when they were younger. This is why you constantly need to reinventing the product over the years to appeal to the next generation. You constantly need brand new customers because the old ones will die off.

 

The standard of marketing I've seen up this way is atrocious. The marketing manager at Tokyu for much of the time I've been here didn't even have a marketing degree or experience. He was just promoted up the ranks in the company. It's same with the guys in charge of Shiribetsu regional marketing, not a qualification in marketing between em. Useless **** the lot of them.

 

I don't believe lack of money is the main problem. Skiing in Japan frankly is ludicrously cheap compared to most other ski areas in the world as it is. The ski industry in this country needs to do something to lift it's image and it's not just about offering the cheapest deals possible which make little money for the resort anyway. Jynxx is right about trends and this country almost more than any other is trend driven and it's time the ski industry gets together and makes skiing trendy once more.

[Jynxx 4]

GN. Have you considere there is no need for advertising for Hokkaido, or Niseko?

As teenagers, we all considered spending a little more on JAL packaged ski holidays, or such, because it didn't take so long flying up there when it took a a whole day going to Shiga or Yuzawa area.

Even now with the Shink, people who live in Kansai (West Japan) will rate Hokkaido as the best snow destination for convinience and snow.

This marketing and business degree is just a intro and academical approach- doesn't make you an expert, just something people do to get thru the door. I mean how many Aussie parent have daughters doing a business degree thinking it's a sure way for their own small business operation. We all know the success rate of new enterprises in Australia, and business and marketing degrees have nothing to do with it. A 6 months course can tell you all that. (Dentsu, the biggest Japanese AD firm doesn't hire graduates with these degrees.)

Snowsports are like shops and real estate. Location, Location, Location. You don't need a real estate agent to sell when you have that. Similarly, Niseko has that. The place speaks for itself. No marketing needed.

[Metabo Oyaji 71]

Maybe the olympics will help, if the Japanese ski and snowboard teams win some medals.

 

The skating rinks became jammed after Arakawa Shizuka's performance last time around.

[Go Native 70]

I wasn't worried overly much about Niseko Jynxx, we're doing pretty well. It's the other resorts around the country that are really struggling. If the lame marketing I see up here by resorts is any indication of what other resorts are like then I don't hold out much hope.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

I agree with you GN, reckon they could do with a kick up the ass in the marketing dept. More than a few people have got in touch with my brother (back home) asking about which resort to come to because they know that I live over here. They have heard about the great conditions but don't know any of the resorts....well prob except Niseko and maybe hakuba foggily rattles in the memory from the Olympics. reckon there is even more international coin to bt had if the "Open" signs could go up in the right places

[NoFakie 45]

When it was coming-of-age (seijinshiki) time this year, it said the number of twenty year olds was half the all-time peak. With post-war baby boom that's probably 1970 or around there somewhere.

 

If the ski peak was 1991, then I think we're looking at possibly 30% less people in the skiing age groups, with god knows how much more leisure choices and a lot of them on less money.

[best skier in hakuba 5]

Re; marketing, been discussed before but many "marketing" people at resorts here are just not really marketing people. 1 resort I know the guy in marketing now came from Accounts with absolutely no experience of marketing. Deep end into it having to learn pretty much everything. The traditional companies will be rotating staff as they do.

[Jynxx 4]

Then, you are justified to think some resorts won't survive. Like I said in the past, A lot of snow resorts are additional income for the farming community. Most country area suffer the loss of their youth populations going to big cities for something other than farming. It might help if the snowbusiness becomes an incentive for the kids to stay locally. They are interested in utilizing their existing infrastructure and resource. Advertising means expenditure. If they are pretty close to break even point, they are less likely to bust that by spending more. Consider the options the snowsports population have where to go. Really depends on the size of the wallet the owners have, and their passion.

More likely, they will close for a season or two, or more until things look up. Change of weather, like farmers do. Putting money into marketing to change weather is out of their thinking. Well, if it really works, would we have recession? Cars like SAAB, OPEL and Chrysler would be selling, no? Did the car measure up to the population? mmmm...

[Go Native 70]

Originally Posted By: best skier in hakuba

Re; marketing, been discussed before but many "marketing" people at resorts here are just not really marketing people. 1 resort I know the guy in marketing now came from Accounts with absolutely no experience of marketing. Deep end into it having to learn pretty much everything. The traditional companies will be rotating staff as they do.

This was the point I was making as well. The marketing departments in half of these resorts are just a joke. Well it would be funny if they weren't going broke...

[muikabochi 208]

I presume it has always been that way.

So they were just lucky and riding the wave of a boom created by movies/moedia in those late 80's days...?

[Go Native 70]

Originally Posted By: Jynxx

Well, if it really works, would we have recession? Cars like SAAB, OPEL and Chrysler would be selling, no? Did the car measure up to the population? mmmm...

Well I worked in marketing and advertising most of my career in Aus and it certainly can work. 100's of billions of dollars are spent worldwide on marketing and advertising for that very reason. But the money can be wasted if it is not targeted properly and poorly presented. This is why having people with qualifications and experience is important.
Also if some of these resorts want to tap into the emerging foreign skiing market now coming to Japan they really should be hiring a foreign marketing manager. The needs, wants and expectations of foreigners are generally very different to the domestic market. It's very much worth it to hire someone who has experience marketing to this market. Certainly none of the success of Niseko can attributed to the astute marketing by Tokyu!

[quattro 1]

Having skied in many places around the world, the one thing that could be said about most Japanese resorts the snow is some of the best I've been on. However there lacking every place else lift systems, places to stay, food and shopping. When I look at these facilities compared to other major resorts around the world they Japanese resorts are just not there.

 

There a few places that may be able to get part of the foreign business(Niseko, Hakuba). I know Niseko has been making a major effort to come up to international standards. That being said most places in Japan will have to rely on the local market to survive. Most of thee places are either too small or so far behind the power curve to attract international customers. Except for the hard core ski type.

 

It may be a harsh analysis but my 2 cents for what its worth.

[Jynxx 4]

mmmm..

that's probably why a lot of people are interested in a Japanese experience and go to Honshu, ie) Nozawa, Zao, Shiga etc ...

Like I said, there are people who have a lot of international experience working in the Japanese corporate culture, and Tokyu have been doing business with the Western Australian government about 1980. Another example, look at Hawaii. They got their gig worked out for sure. Whether they want to turn Niseko into a powder disneyland for the western foreign market is questionable. They probably are more likely to hire experienced Chinese and Koreans for sure. After all, China and Korea are neighbors with huge potential.

The word "International" has a different definition in Japan when it is applied to a Japanese, and certainly it is changing as the Japanese have connected with the Chinese.

We will see. I don't see why Tokyu has to be transparent about their marketing to the public. I don't know if they want it to end up like Naeba real estate development. The luxury experience is : High end resorts in naturally kept environment. Think Ayers Rock, Lizard Island ... From what I see with thursdays photos, looks like it's heading that way.

[Go Native 70]

NPB and of course Tokyu have commissioned a master plan to transform the main road going up to the lifts in Hirafu (Hirafu zaka). It looks like it is definitely going ahead which is great news. For those that have been here and struggled on the ice and dodging cars going up and down this street you'll be very happy with what they have planned, including putting all the powerlines underground. We'll actually get views of Youtei from the village unobstructed by powerlines. Woohoo! And the walkways will be heated! Work should start this coming summer and the initial stages completed by the 11/12 season. This should really help to create more of a focal point in the village and a more scenic and asthetically pleasing space for people. For all my bitching some good things are happening, at least up this way

 

At least there is some thought going into planning now. Something that has never really occured previously in this resort.

 

Here is s a link to the masterplan if you're interested.

 

www.nisekotourism.com/files/MasterPlan/090327_Hirafu_Masterplan_E.pdf

[best skier in hakuba 5]

Took a quick look and will more later.

First impressions - that. is impressive.

[jsalbaugh 0]

The resort guide here on SJ shows 74 closed ares on Hokkaido alone. Is this accurate? I'm sure many of these are one lift community hills but 74? Is this an indicator to the industry in Japan as a whole?

[SnowJapan 178]

The resort open/closed info comes from, ultimately, resorts themselves - and provided to us through a third-party. So I would hope that it is accurate.

 

We are actually discussing what to do with "closed" resorts in our database and how/if to display them - and I think in the coming months and run up to next season we can expect to see some general changes with things like that.

[Go Native 70]

There are a stupid amount of so called ski 'resorts' in Japan. Something like over 500 of them! And yes many are just very small local hills with little more than one or two lifts. They also really couldn't be considered resorts with little more than one or two buildings at the base possibly providing some lunch options. A little like development of golf courses, during the bubble years ski areas were popping up all over the place. Many of them were barely viable then and certianly not now.

[resortguy 0]

I know someone who worked for Kandatsu when Pine Ridge took them over about 6 years (?) ago. They had big plans but it all seemed to end up being as much talk as action and results. There was it seems quite a lot of friction between the staff and the suddenly moved in management who were American/Korean. It was not successful.

[jsalbaugh 0]

So then the next question would be....how many "viable" areas are there in Japan and do you feel there are enough skiers to keep them all afloat? How many skier days per season over the last 5 years have been recorded? In North America we seemed to have leveled off as far as loss of areas. The mom and pops still disappear on occasion though. I'm not in the industry, just curious.

[grungy-gonads 54]

Decent sized ones, perhaps 150 or so?

[thursday 1]

of course there was hope a few years back that Chinese would take up skiing in a big way and overflow into Japan.

 

Well, apparently it's not gonna happen..... just yet.

 

Article about skiing (or not) in China

[Go Native 70]

We've seen some pretty big increases in visitor numbers from mainland China but this is coming off a very small base. In areas that don't have much of a skiing tradition most people haven't even heard of Niseko let alone anywhere else in Japan. Definitely a marketing opportunity though for businesses here. Cities in Asia with large expat communities like Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore are making up a fairly big percentage of visitors to Niseko currently and the numbers are growing rapidly. Starting to get a lot more Europeans and Scandanavians around the resort as well. Aussies still acount for approximately 60% of total foreign ski visitors though. I'd say it's something like 60% Aussies, 30% SE Asians and 10% other. (this is a guestimate)

Domestic visitor numbers have continued to decrease.

The foreign visitors here have stemmed the decrease in numbers each year but according to Tokyu there are still nowhere near the amount of skier days as there were during the bubble years.

[Jynxx 4]

10 pin bowling, golf courses, tennis clubs, ski resorts ... all are theme parks and the bubble and the trend of that time saw many of them come and go.

The fact that most Japanese ski resorts do not measure up with Europe and Canada (which rate high on the Japanese scale of where they want to go), and when the domestic trend is down (like the Chinese article) it's natural and healthy that a lot of them will close. Maybe some might survive if they take up the Kiwi approach and run them like club fields. The big one's will still be there, though. There are all time popular resorts out there.

I meet Japanese skiers here on the Alps. Do they expect and want Japanese Resorts to change? No.

With all the this how "Japanese resorts will do better with marketing and infrastructure" crap I read here, I wonder if the Japanese (and you) are prepared to pay the increase in cost that will be passed on to customers. No sane management is going to put wasted money into marketing espcially in the times of depression, that's the first thing that goes out of budget. They rather keep the cost down if that means closing some of the operation.

And hey, SnowJapan is the best marketing media out there ! I see SnowJapan as the only combined informative resource that fulfills the needs of snow fans and snow resorts. I hope some more Japanese resorts see it that way, too.

 

[Metabo Oyaji 71]

Originally Posted By: Jynxx

With all the this how "Japanese resorts will do better with marketing and infrastructure" crap I read here, I wonder if the Japanese (and you) are prepared to pay the increase in cost that will be passed on to customers.

I agree. I don't see anything glaringly wrong with the infrastructure from my admittedly limited experience. (Ok, I'd like to see more safety bars, but I'm not going to stay away for the lack of them.) And the marketing doesn't seem all that bad either; all I need is a good website, and most ski areas have perfectly adequate ones. True, the JR ski package advertisements seem to have vanished from the TV airwaves in recent years, but if anyone has any interest at all, it is easy enough to find places to go via computer or visit to a bookstore.

What is needed in this economy is affordability. Which inevitably impacts profitability, but there it is.

Agree, though, that this site is a fantastic resource, not just for the depth and volume of the reviews and photos, but also for the sense of community, which I haven't seen the equal of in any of the Japanese-language kuchikomi sites.