muikabochi 208 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 As I said in my report from Kandatsu Kogen today, I felt the place was just about struggling to open - well, the bit that was open - and it just felt..... sad. There were only a few lifts running, toilets closed, restaurants closed, hardly any staff, etc. You can tell the place is stuggling big time. I can understand resorts having to cut costs, but cutting into basic services? And lifts that cut off half the resort? It seems totally impossible to think they will be able to get out of the ditch when they are making the basic service poor. Anyone else been to places like this this season? Of course it is a sad situation to be in but got to think that it would be better if some places closed rather than spreading out the diminishing numbers and everyone having a tough time. Link to post Share on other sites
mina2 6 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I get the same feeling, though perhaps not as pronounced, at Naeba the last few years. They really seem to be running it on the bare minimum and there seem more lifts not moving than moving now. Of course if there aren't tons of people there it doesn't make sense to have them all running but it does look bad. The hotel and around the skijo isn't as lively as it used to be as well. Link to post Share on other sites
gurgle 0 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Maybe it is something to do with the ownership structure ? I do not know but have heard things like some resorts having different owners for different lifts, so there is no real concerted effort to make things work. Not to mention vested interests to keep things as they are at ceratin resorts too. So if you owned a few lifts that made no money, of course you would stop operating them. Also, if you owned a lift that makes a lot of money, you would be against any further development of the resort. That's the mentality at some resorts I believe. Besides that of course the number of skiers in Japan just keeps going down, so there has to be some casulaties. Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 I think that is a problem at some gurgle (Ishiuchi, Zao, Happo?) but it isn't the problem at Kandatsu and Naeba they are 1company resorts. Link to post Share on other sites
dyna8800 3 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Muikabochi, That not operating the lifts midweek is a Prince strategy...for example, in Shiga Kogen, they only ran all the lifts on the weekends, forget about going there midweek unless you like to hike for your turns. Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Right. At least at Naeba I think pretty much all of the mountain was accessible. At Shiga Kogen it limits the terrain? Kandatsu isn't a Prince resort but they have cut off 1/3 of it by not using those 2 lifts. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 They did that today at karuizawa - was waiting for 10mins on the "high speed" lift on a weekday! That never happens in yuzawa for me. :S Link to post Share on other sites
dyna8800 3 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Also must note that Prince shed about half of its snow resorts... I better go to Naeba before that one goes, too! Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Happo-one is my main destination and they seem to be trying to make a go of it with at least the premise of progress with the "Happo Reborn" campaign....just looks like wishful thinking to me. The whole problem is the entire industry is built and designed to run on bubble economics. I think we are going to see a bunch of our favorite spots go down the dumper. Link to post Share on other sites
gurgle 0 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Hard to see somewhere like Happo close, but I find that resort a mess of lifts. Then someone told me they were all seperately owned and it made a lot of sense why things had not been improved. Note, this has all been heard from others. Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Like many businesses in Japan, ski resorts would rather run their operations into the ground rather than change. That might be a cynical observation but anyone with any experience in the local business world will find that hypotheses to be generally valid. Like the golf course industry, most ski resorts need a good shake out or they should fold altogether. Even the crown jewels such as Happo have their issues. Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Originally Posted By: gurgle Hard to see somewhere like Happo close, but I find that resort a mess of lifts. Then someone told me they were all seperately owned and it made a lot of sense why things had not been improved. Note, this has all been heard from others. I'm just repeating gossip and I don't really know, but I heard that Happo is carved up by different farming families whose principles are not conducive to change. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 The real question is why is the domestic market not skiing as much anymore? Obviously it has something to do with disposable income but frankly the Japanese are some of the best savers in the world and there's still plenty of money going around, I don't believe it's just because they can't afford it. Personally I think it's mainly because they haven't done their job in marketing skiing to the next generations. Skiing has changed a lot in the last 20 years or so including the massive increase in boarders and a movement worldwide for fatter skis and off-piste skiing. The vast bulk of Japanese resorts though still look and are run just like they were in the 80's, nothing has changed. It might have been cool in the 80's but it aint anymore! It's as tripitaka says nothing changes here and they'd rather go down staying the same than change to try and keep up with changing markets. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Also costs haven't changed much since the bubble burst right? Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I stayed at the Higashiyama Prince in Niseko when it was a Prince property. I stayed at the Hilton Niseko Village the first year it was a Hilton property. Same building. Different management. The Hilton went full out on its international marketing. You could use Honour points to stay in Niseko. The website was completely revamped with all the flashy stuff. You couldn't recognise the old place from the website. The best bit was the relaxation of a stiff oldboy's club etiquette at the bar. There were lounging areas for internet, pool, darts, and loads of beer. In fact I liked it. Was the Higashiyama in danger of dying? No, because it was saleable. Did Hilton bring the place back to life? Definitely. Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Originally Posted By: Go Native The real question is why is the domestic market not skiing as much anymore? Obviously it has something to do with disposable income but frankly the Japanese are some of the best savers in the world and there's still plenty of money going around, I don't believe it's just because they can't afford it. Personally I think it's mainly because they haven't done their job in marketing skiing to the next generations. Skiing has changed a lot in the last 20 years or so including the massive increase in boarders and a movement worldwide for fatter skis and off-piste skiing. The vast bulk of Japanese resorts though still look and are run just like they were in the 80's, nothing has changed. It might have been cool in the 80's but it aint anymore! It's as tripitaka says nothing changes here and they'd rather go down staying the same than change to try and keep up with changing markets. GN, I think it also has something to do with the dire economic situation. As you rightly point out, the Japanese are among the world's best savers (if not the the best), but disposable incomes here are bloody grim and the outlook is just as bleak. For westerners, it's more socially acceptable to follow your own instincts and head off around the world to do things you want to do. In Japan, I think that attitude is not as prevalent and it's something you might do if you're a student, etc. Then again, there are exceptions. As for the business perspective, from my experience in the Japanese corporate world, I think most people are content to keep their mouths shut and wait for retirement or pay day while accepting the status quo with the attitude that change is more trouble than it's worth. Link to post Share on other sites
Metabo Oyaji 71 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I think it is just money. There is a big barrier to entry for families with kids, which is where the next generation will come from. But I do see improvements in this area, with ticket prices coming down and family package discounts. Maybe much cheaper rentals would help to get the next generation hooked? Link to post Share on other sites
klingon 10 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 So many more easy to access and relatively hassle-free forms of entertainment that are available now to people. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 ticket prices coming down? haven't seen much in the last 5 years - still at 4,000/4,500yen for a day ticket. there should be more competition - knock them down to 3k and more people'll go. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Quite a few resorts are cheaper now Rob. Perhaps not the main ones, but perhaps b-kyu and below you can find a fair few that charge 3000 yen. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 really? where they be hiding? Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Does your Vale accomodation come with free lift tix? Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Trend. Sports have "in" and "out" of the times. When there are personalities or champions in that sport, there are followings and spectators become players themselves. Fashion and sports is closely related, especially such as golf, tennis, ski. All these are combined with monetary investments, ie) club memberships (golf, tennis) real estate (ski) History tells me these investments do not pay off, other than the feel good factor, and "Trend" dictates in Japan what people feel justified to spend their disposable income. So people spend when the trend shows the economy is in good times, and purses are tight otherwise. -or, they focus on one or two things to spend on. Snowsports is not a national past time in Japan like in Austria. Even here in Germany, that will be soccer. Not many people can be bothered driving or train-bus half a day to que up on the lift lines on weekends. Also, the older you get, people drop out of sports. One starts working for a Japanese company, you will see less of your school mates. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Originally Posted By: thursday Does your Vale accomodation come with free lift tix? dunno - haven't checked. should do really. Link to post Share on other sites
Metabo Oyaji 71 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Originally Posted By: RobBright really? where they be hiding? Hunter Mtn. and Mt. Jeans both lowered their prices this year. Not quite to 3000 yen, but a couple-few hundred yen cheaper than before. Link to post Share on other sites
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