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I was just looking at how snowmaking works and I guess it must use quite a lot of water. In the case of Japan, I guess water is not in short supply because of the climate and geography, but it does seem somewhat wasteful. I guess Dubai would have to be the most extreme case of wastefulness (and is probably cost-effective because of the slave labor used to build the facilities, etc.)

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In terms of water it really isn't all that wasteful as the water is pumped out as snow which melts back to water later anyway. Like it or not many ski areas these days would barely be viable if it wasn't for snowmaking. Australia for example would have a very short ski season and limited skiable terrain if it wasn't for snowmaking.

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It would also use more energy to cool down an indoor snow park (and make the snow) in a place like Dubai. I'd say energy use would be a bigger issue than the water? I have no real knowledge so I'm merely speculating.

 

It'd probably be an environmental issue rather than a political issue but meh that's besides the point.

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Originally Posted By: Go Native
In terms of water it really isn't all that wasteful as the water is pumped out as snow which melts back to water later anyway. Like it or not many ski areas these days would barely be viable if it wasn't for snowmaking. Australia for example would have a very short ski season and limited skiable terrain if it wasn't for snowmaking.
I Tell you what, when the snow making machines are blowing in your face on a ski lift, you just want to jump off its so painfull.
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Originally Posted By: Ryoma
It would also use more energy to cool down an indoor snow park (and make the snow) in a place like Dubai. I'd say energy use would be a bigger issue than the water? I have no real knowledge so I'm merely speculating.

It'd probably be an environmental issue rather than a political issue but meh that's besides the point.


I think the politics comes in when you're diverting to more productive uses, such as farming.
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Are you really asking if it is politically correct or environmentally responsible?

 

The majority of ski area's that use snowmaking (at least the ones I have seen) use water collected from the previous years melt - that when it melts will return to the water supply again. They also use hydroelectric power. Electricity generated using that same water source. So it seems that it (at least) can be environmentally responsible and sustainable.

 

As for artificial snow domes - there is no such neat dovetail into the existing environment. However I know the dome planned for Perth was planning on using limited water as it was going to treat the melt water and recycle it back as fresh artificial snow. And the address the massive power requirements they were looking into installing the roof with solar panels and a storage battery to enable it to be relatively grid independent. But it has not been built yet...so who knows.

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Originally Posted By: Mamabear
Are you really asking if it is politically correct or environmentally responsible?



The two are different, but go hand-in-hand in my view. I'm not really anti-snowmaking and it might actually have some positive ecological benefits.
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Originally Posted By: tripitaka
The two are different, but go hand-in-hand in my view. I'm not really anti-snowmaking and it might actually have some positive ecological benefits.


quoted for truth.

Personally, it's probably just the selfishness of the developed countries (as are issues of biodiversity, environmental responsibility etc) and that, itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even/especially if all the natural snow melts, people will be making snow simply because there are people with enough disposable income and time to spend on something they enjoy. I'm not for or against it but rather just accepted the fact that we do it and we may have to continue doing so.

That said, I don't think I've ever seen artificial snow ^_^;.
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Snowmaking is to skiing as blow-iup dolls are to sex.

Its sad to see it become more prelevant, but it seems the only way some hills cab open at a reasonable time these recent years.

 

However, something like Karuizawa is definately suspect. It is some kind of chemical slush that they can make in above-zero temps, that seems very, very wrong. I have no idea if something like that can be adequately absorbed back into the environment, and i certainly would not want to drink the run-off from that.

 

 

Speaking of which, what about wax? I have been wondering about that the last few years myself, if all the fluro and regular waxes do damage to the environment or pollute the drinking water... They are known to contain dioxins (which is why you need a very well ventilated are when you wax).

 

I use a bean-based wax that supposedly is 100% biodegradable, but its hard to find over here.

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Oyuki,

I have ridden a lot of man made snow - Thredbo and Falls Creek need to make it to remain viable.

 

Simple facts:

It is just water squirted out of the guns under pressure with a bit of air mixed in. Snowmaking only turns on when the conditions are perfect for snow (except for the necessary precipitation) - and in fact the guns are normally firing even when natural snow is falling.

 

This stuff is glorious. I can't tell the difference between riding this and riding stuff that fell from the sky. It will never be Hokkaido POW, but there is no tangible difference between real or man made Thredbo snow.

 

Clearly however if a resort is manufacturing snow in warm conditions then there is something amiss!

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In the end, it all gets back to Energy.

Do we want to create more nuclear waste, Co2, Dam up some valley ...

Political correctness is fashion of the times, Environmentally responsible? yes we all take it as part of being politically correct but to how much extent we want to go is yet to be seen.

 

I'd rather have all the vending machines taken out of Tokyo so that there will be one less nuclear power plant.

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Quote:
I'd rather have all the vending machines taken out of Tokyo so that there will be one less nuclear power plant.


No way. I love vending machines.

I'd rather an african country be de-listed than a single vending machine go off. I am serious.
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Originally Posted By: thursday
Quote:
I'd rather have all the vending machines taken out of Tokyo so that there will be one less nuclear power plant.


No way. I love vending machines.

I'd rather an african country be de-listed than a single vending machine go off. I am serious.


lol

Yeah the snow canons at Meribel should be renamed, sheet ice canons!! It was only on one slope thankfully, but that was my access slope to the gondola from my apartment and scraping down it every morning was a health hazard.
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Snowmaking should be encouraged to advance their technology. Give them impetus to make the snow softer, start earlier, and become more environmentally friendly. In turn, this will create more jobs, which will allows us to ski/board more often. biggrin

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Originally Posted By: thursday
Man made snow is actually ice. Spray water at high pressure with sub zero air and it turns to ice.

I've been sprayed with Korean ice. It's not snow. It goes crunch when you ski on it.


Exactly why in Aus they can't tell the difference between real snow and the man made stuff. Real snow in Aus normally being icy crap! lol
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That might be true GN... but the science of snowmaking really has come on beautifully. The snow making operators can choose the mix of air/water to provide a heavier wet snow, good for making a base, or a drier powdery snow - better for top up coverage and lovely riding. [dependent on atmospheric conditions of course]

 

I've ridden some rather squeaky snow courtesy of a big night on the guns.

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Originally Posted By: Mamabear
Oyuki,
I have ridden a lot of man made snow - Thredbo and Falls Creek need to make it to remain viable.

Simple facts:
It is just water squirted out of the guns under pressure with a bit of air mixed in. Snowmaking only turns on when the conditions are perfect for snow (except for the necessary precipitation) - and in fact the guns are normally firing even when natural snow is falling.

This stuff is glorious. I can't tell the difference between riding this and riding stuff that fell from the sky. It will never be Hokkaido POW, but there is no tangible difference between real or man made Thredbo snow.


Clearly however if a resort is manufacturing snow in warm conditions then there is something amiss!


Mamabear, thank for enlightening me to what snowmaking is. I have ridden quite a bit of manmade snow myself, and it has been a wholly lackluster experience.

The chemical crap i was referring to is specific to Karuizawa, and can be made in above-zero temps. Which is why they are able to open faster than anywhere else in the area.
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worship

My apologies.

I certainly haven't had a problem with it.

Maybe I have just been lucky.

 

or maybe it is just that at Thredbo there is no discernible difference - except that the terrain is open instead of shut.

Quote:
but there is no tangible difference between real or man made Thredbo snow.
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