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I don't particularly think the choices I make are the safest or best ones. For me though part of the whole experience is putting myself at a reasonably high level of risk. I love it. It's not for everyone, I understand that. I only ask you not try and force me to be more responsible with a whole lot of rules and regulations. I don't ask for you to be responsible for me.

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Talking about taking risks, I skydive, speedfly, paraglide, and BASE jump.

There are a lot of people (including skydivers) who scoff at BASE jumpers because of their fatality rate. Sure, not many people do it, and almost someone dies every months. The longer you are in this sport, your numbers are up. This is where personal choice rules and since you are not risking anyone's life but your own. It's none of anyone's business the fatality rate is the highest of any sport.

Skydiving

I know people have thick heads. We will feel threatened if the people who are on the same load of the jump airplane think they can do anything they like, act like skygods, because they think they know what they are doing and have heaps of experience. Thank goodness we have safety rules. One can take out a fellow jumper in freefall and on canopy. That's why we have training and rules. Any couch potato can jump from a plane. If you kill yourself in the process, I don't care. But there are other's in the air. Do we want a loose cannon in the air? We don't know who we are jumping with a lot of the time. Are we gonna trust some BS about some bonehead telling us he knows what he is doing ? That's a lot to ask.

As I stated above, Professionals do make fundamental mistakes and the outcome can be someone else's death.

 

Apply that to this situation. What's different ?

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It's simple Jynxx, avalanches can and do happen. People may or may not know what they are doing and their actions may put you at risk. You just have to make the choice whether or not that risk is worth it for you. If you think the risk is too high don't head out through the gates at the resort. Go off backcountry where there's no one else to worry about.

As thousands of people have been heading out through the gates with little or no avie knowledge for years with no fatal accidents occuring, for me the risk is worth it.

Is it all just an accident waiting to happen? Quite possibly but really why do people care so much? People die in the mountains around the world all the time. Something like 11 people died from exposure this summer in the mountains of central Hokkaido. Should we not allow anyone to go hiking unless they have been thoroughly checked to have good gear and knowledge? No, I don't think anyone would seriously consider that. Why should skiing be any different? It's risky out there but you have a choice whether you take that risk or not.

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This is like the good old days, back before SJ became a tourist advisory service.

 

CB I think GN's response pretty well hit the mark, but if that isn't clear enough, didn't somebody else describe it as slack country with training wheels....I think that more than proves my point. You're being an old woman.

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I just don't want to see all 'out of bounds' skiing become only the domain of those with knowledge, experience and gear. It seems some on this forum would. I don't think these areas should only be enjoyed by some elite group. Does this mean that some people will put themselves and possibly others in harms way? Sure it does, but c'mon lets live a little! You don't like that kind of risk then don't do it and don't complain about those of us who are happy to accept it.

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Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll
This is like the good old days, back before SJ became a tourist advisory service.

CB I think GN's response pretty well hit the mark, but if that isn't clear enough, didn't somebody else describe it as slack country with training wheels....I think that more than proves my point. You're being an old woman.




lol an old woman lol

>BD don't mind being advised about safety, I just don't want mandatory rules brought in that demand from me a certain level of safety, I believe that should be my choice. When you ski out through a gate in Niseko you are making a decision to be fully responsible for your own actions, there's no one else to blame.

I never once said everybody must carry avie gear, though the minute I step out a gate, or duck a rope, I do. Whether it is resort inbounds, or slack country, or whatever. Never have I said that you must carry gear either so dont put words in my mouth.

We ALL know your attitude towards helmets, wouldnt wanna wear one for the life of you, fine. That only affects yourself and yourself alone, I guess your family too, but I couldnt care whether anybody wears one or not.

Patrol doesnt control the peak, nor any of the other areas that are there. Thats why you go through a gate. True, youre right, they evaluate conditions really well, and to their credit things are great there - maybe thats why Ive enjoyed over 140 days up there - but they certainly dont blast it, and they arent patrolling those areas left, right, and center.

Thats why its "your responsibility" when you enter those areas. You asked what Id be happy with? Just people who were more knowledgeable about what they are doing and the consequences. Your damn right I dont want somebody ski cutting above me, nor dropping in above me either. Niseko isnt safe from avalanches as you seem to profess - You should know better than that as all slopes there are at the perfect angle to release. All Im saying is that watching people ski cutting from the hike up over about 400+ meters was enough for me.

Ill continue this when I have time. Cheers.
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The only people doing any attacking on SJ anymore are the ones attacking Hakuba, why I have no idea.


This wasn't about Hakuba and I can't see anyone 'attacking Hakuba'.

But apart from that, even if there were, they might feel justified considering the huge volume of ridiculous self-right⋅eous tiresome bullshit spewed out and 'Niseko attacks' in the past.
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I usually try to avoid "getting into" these forums because they can consume you, but you guys have me all flustered and I must say I'm actually enjoying it.

GN, your previous example is perfect. 11 people dying in the summer due to poor choices being made by whoever was in charge. Are they going to shut down Mountain travel because of this accident? In most countries I would laugh at that the thought, but in Japan you need to actually consider it. You know as well as I do that Japan loves to "protect" the people. As ridiculous as it is, off piste skiing is actually against the rules at most resorts due to the potential of hitting a tree or someone else less experienced following you in. I know it's hard to stomach but that's their thinking.

The Niseko Rules do not demand that you carry avalanche gear, only strongly advise. As much as I don't agree with the way they were set up (where the resorts tried to pass the buck), I understand what they are trying to acheive. These rules are actually more restrictive than the resorts that turn a blind eye, but they also show positive signs of progress (as slow as they are).

So lets say there was an accident past the gates and lets say that person was not wearing gear. How do you think the gov't and locals would react to that? How do you think it would reflect on all the work that has been done up until this point? Or do you not care about that either?

I know there are alot of locals out there cringing thinking about the day someone does die and what the result will be.

 

So lets think about the bigger picture of places like Niseko and Hakuba setting a new standard for Japan and help them spread the message. You speak of this "elite" group only allowed into the backcountry...we are talking about "basic" awareness dude, like learning how to drive a car in a parking lot before you hit the road.

 

Once again it will never be mandatory to wear avie gear once you step out of bounds, and that's our god given american freedom! I just can't believe that with all your experience we are having this debate or the fact that you ski alone. For myself, the more I have been in the snow, the more careful I have become because I know it's a matter of time before something does go wrong and you can't control randomness. Even highly experienced professional skiers skiing insane lines do so as safely as possible, so why don't you?

 

I just realized this thread was about some place called Mizunosawa.

I also just realized the time I spent on this. Touchee, you got me.

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Originally Posted By: SKI
Quote:
The only people doing any attacking on SJ anymore are the ones attacking Hakuba, why I have no idea.


This wasn't about Hakuba and I can't see anyone 'attacking Hakuba'.

But apart from that, even if there were, they might feel justified considering the huge volume of ridiculous self-right⋅eous tiresome bullshit spewed out and 'Niseko attacks' in the past.


Actually Ski, in my first post I had a go at the H-boys. The offline response I got was pretty savage.
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  • SnowJapan Admin

Just a quick note. Long-timers will have heard all of this before but please keep the personal insults out of this.

Obviously a fair few people have strong opinions about this subject, and that's just fine, but don't let it boil over.

 

[Don't like it? You are more than welcome to not post here.]

 

Thanks.

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It is fun debating these things isn't biggrin

And I must admit to occasionally playing devils advocate just to have a debate.

BD the first 10 years of my skiing life was almost solely backcountry in the Aussie 'Alps'. In those days I even did multi day solo trips into the backcountry. Admittedly avie risk is low in Aus but they still get some serious weather. I guess I'm just very used to heading out into remote areas by myself. I've done up to 12 day solo trips into some very remote areas and that was in the days pre mobile phones, GPS's and EPIRBs. If anything had have happened I was definitely a goner. I learned to trust myself and have confidence in my abilities. Believe me I'm not quite so adventurous these days.

Of course skiing off the peak is rarely a true solo experience or really backcountry.

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Black Diamond, yours is the voice of reason.

 

I put on my Pulse, packed my shovel and probe everyday I was in Niseko last season. I didn't make those I was skiing with train with me and have the same kit like I would in the Alps, where we would spend a few hours over a couple of days practicing all sorts of scenarios at the beginning of the season. I wore it primarily to help if i saw one take place, on or off piste...I'd feel irresponsible if, on the off chance that did happen, and I was there but didn't have my skins to get up the hill, my Pulse and probe to locate the victim, my shovel to get 'em out. And it was a pleasure to read your first post and hear the same being said.

 

Last season when I called to talk to the Avey Crew about the possibility of Mizuno Sawa opening up, they did say that there would be a card obtained by sitting thru a one-time informational lecture but that avey gear would not be mandatory.

 

I think it would be awesome if it does open up. Hats off to all those who have brought it this close to happening.

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Your choice to do that Tlen and no one would criticize you for it. Just as those who don't wish to carry any gear shouldn't be criticized. Personally I feel no responsibility for those around me when I'm out skiing and I don't expect others to feel responsible for me. I'd help if I could but aint going to feel guilty about not having a transceiver or shovel. You guys really ought to join the patrol or search and rescue if you have such overwhelming concern for your fellow man thumbsup

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  • 3 weeks later...

'Bump' Does any one have any more news on whether or not they are still planning to allow access Mizuno no sawa this season? Couldn't find any updates on there web sites

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Originally Posted By: Creek Boy
Thurs, no, but unless my mate gets me free Cat skiing at Niseko and first runs in Mizuno, then Ill go.

This year: Rusutsu, Kiroro, Tokachi and Furano. We will hit Teine on the last day, too.


If it's puking, try and hit Kokusai.

You won't be disappointed groovy
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