Rag-Doll 0 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Creek Boy I didnt ride the peak last year - not after the circus I saw. Skiers and snowboarders would hike 2/3 of the way up, see people dropping in from the peak, and start ski cutting all the way over from (I think its) 藤原ã®æ²¢ã€€Fujiwara no sawa - watching them youd think they were cutting all the way towards Jacksons Whether you are the 1st skier, or the 20th, you can trigger an avie, and watching all those clowns going down the way they did really made me question whether they know anything about snow safety; it kept me from wanting to ride there. If you have the same sort of carnage at Mizuno, Id imagine its only a matter of time as well....the same for the peak, too. CB, each to his own but given the thousands and thousands of people who have been doing the peak at niseko in recent years and the lack of avie injury (has there ever been any avie caused injury off the peak?) in my mind the danger level rates around the same as swimming in the surf. Yes there is a risk but it is so low as to be hardly a consideration. BTW, it has always seemed to me (from years of seeing similar discussions on the topic on this and other forums) that the lads in Hakuba display an inflated view of the avie risk they face and the extent to which they gear up for it. I don't know whether it panders to their self perceptions or what, but it comes across as more than a little OTT. Not that I'm claiming any great knowledge on the subject of avies, but compare the approach you expressed above against the recorded frequency of injuries from avies off the peak..... Good news on the Mizuno no Sawa initiative but I reckon they will find that once the average rope ducking punter sees tracks in there we'll see people ducking ropes all over the place to gain entry - it will become a free for all and keeping people to the safe areas will be quite difficult. Interesting note about Arai in the material SJ posted - there was some seriously dangerous terrain at that place - not necessarily because of avie danger but the gullies and waterfalls and rocks made it pretty easy to stay on the right side of the ropes. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Rag-Doll you are completely correct that there has been virtually no injuries from avies off the peak. There is a big difference in the risks posed by avies in Niseko and Hakuba regions and although I think the Hakuba lads certainly may know the risks in their areas, which can be significant, they may not realise you can't compare that level of risk to here. There are many reasons why avie danger in Niseko is relatively low compared to areas like Hakuba and I believe access to areas when the risk is high is very well managed by the ski patrol, hence there has been no avie deaths in Niseko since the inception of the 'Local Rules' even though off-piste skiing here has dramatically increased. And I for one am very happy for there to be more people like CB who have an overinflated perception of the risk, more freshies for the rest of us! I for one can't wait to hit Mizuno no Sawa! Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Creek Boy I didnt ride the peak last year - not after the circus I saw. Skiers and snowboarders would hike 2/3 of the way up, see people dropping in from the peak, and start ski cutting all the way over from (I think its) 藤原ã®æ²¢ã€€Fujiwara no sawa - watching them youd think they were cutting all the way towards Jacksons Whether you are the 1st skier, or the 20th, you can trigger an avie, and watching all those clowns going down the way they did really made me question whether they know anything about snow safety; it kept me from wanting to ride there. If you have the same sort of carnage at Mizuno, Id imagine its only a matter of time as well....the same for the peak, too. This concerned me 2 yrs ago. And I was in no way going to try and ride that area myself at that stage. I witnessed a heck of a lot of talk about going to these area's from people with no thought of Avie safety. I checked the reports every morning as habit, and had to let some of these Peak goers know what the conditions were like as they hadnt even checked the reports! Basic stuff. I put my hand up as one voice in support of a basic avie knowledge/local area knowledge course that has to be completed before being allowed access to the Peak and Mizuno no Sawa (add in any other area that has similar risk) - A simple ID card is all that would be required. That would take the n00bs out of the mix and make it safer for those who know what they are doing. In fact it could be an alternate revenue stream for the resort. You either do the course and get certified (and pay for the pleasure); or you hire a guide who is certified to take you through safely (and pay for the pleasure). Will keep the playground safe for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 That's all good Mama but I reckon there is a tendancy to overplay the risk, compared to many other sports where the risk is equally present. We don't restrict poor swimmers from going into the ocean. Sure we have swim between the flags (which can be more dangerous due to crowding than not) but these guys who claim they always ride with avie gear and won't ride with anyone unless they too carry avie gear and know this and do, blah blah blah. How much shark repellant and emergency gear do they carry when surfing? Do they carry an EPIRB when doing a bit of body surfing at the local beach, you know, because one never can tell with rips and changing sea conditions .... It is all very well being cautious but the holier than thou attitude towards the avery punter by some of these guys is a bit much when they're hardly hard core themselves. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Rag-Doll MB certainly means well but you have to undertand she comes from Australia which has turned into one of the most over protective nanny states on the planet. No one does anything anymore in Australia without the utmost consideration for what is the worse that could happen. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I hear you Rag-Doll. However if a poor swimmer pops into a rough swell and goes under they are not likley to take out 5 or 6 strong swimmers ... and those strong swimmers have some chance of saving the poor swimmer. In the situation that CB describes you have an area that ridden well is pretty darn safe - but when carved up by people with no understanding can represent danger to the others that are there. I am no necessarily saving you must carry avie gear to the peak - but merely suggesting that a half day course outlining the area, the safety issues and what to look for would make it safer for everyone. CB and GN and heavens knows how many others on here (and out in the real world) already have that knowledge but there are countless tourists flocking in there who dont have a clue. And if they dont want to waste time doing the course, then pony up for a guide who can ensure they dont drop in on someone from above and cause a slide. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Go Native Rag-Doll MB certainly means well but you have to undertand she comes from Australia which has turned into one of the most over protective nanny states on the planet. No one does anything anymore in Australia without the utmost consideration for what is the worse that could happen. Just trying to stop the n00bs dropping in on your fun GN! Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Not to worry MB the noobs will all get covered in avies and I'll just ski right over the top of em Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 That's the point for me ger...a few hours being taught this stuff (or a few bucks to hav a guide to yell at you) could save all that trouble. Link to post Share on other sites
Yuki's Passion 1 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 The only people doing any attacking on SJ anymore are the ones attacking Hakuba, why I have no idea. Its obvious there isnt going to be an intelligent conversation on avies in this thread, so please continue. RD, your ignorant and blatantly stupid posts/points arent worth my time considering you really know F'all about avie risk and myself. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Get over yourself CB. You obviously know F'all about avie risk in Niseko but try and pass yourself off as some all knowing master on the subject. Please explain what you would be happy with? Only those like yourself who think they know it all allowed to ski off-piste? RD made an extremely valid point in that thousands of people have skied off the peak in the last 5 or 6 years. Have you heard of even one injury from an avie in all that time? I know I haven't. Yet you still insist on claiming the risk is high? You're the one with no idea. And where the hell did the attacking Hakuba comment come from??? Link to post Share on other sites
black diamond 0 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Boyz, c'mon now, let's play nice. RD even if the stats are true, you should feel that it is your responsibility to gear up and set an example and perhaps have the chance to help someone else. What if a freak avalanche did happen like the one in Whistler a few years back that occured on an in bounds blue run mid mountain. What if you had a chance to save a person but you couldn't because you weren't prepared? Wearing a pack and beacon when stepping out of bounds should not be a debatable question, it's like wearing a seatbelt. The more you wear it it, the less you notice it and honestly you will begin to feel naked without it. In addition to a shovel and probe a pack can have a radio, an extra layer, a spare pair of goggles and still feel light. Why wouldn't you wear one? But I also agree with GN, CB can be a bit obnoxious (no offense) almost to the point of embarassing less knowledgable skiers and that should never happen, not on a forum or on the hill. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Aren't we talking about Niseko and the peak here? Keep it in context. Niseko aint Whistler. Repeat: We are talking about NISEKO here Link to post Share on other sites
black diamond 0 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Sorry thursday I forgot, avalanches don't happen in Niseko. "Avalanche strikes Niseko backcountry, man injured. Feb 20, 2009‎. He was trapped 70cm beneath the slide, and was found by the guides via beacon after about five minutes trapped under the snow." Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I'm with BD here, One person dead from first incident is one too many. People who doesn't carry a beacon, shovel, and probe has no business in backcountry. Who's gonna dig you out? Wait for the patrol that's might get there in 30 min? You got 15 min for 90% survival rate. 30 min is like 40% survival rate. Everyone out there should know how to locate, You gonna rely on one guide to locate multiple burials? Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I can appreciate CB's point of view. The Risk is people triggering the avalanche. And would you know if the conditions are primed for that ? One day you're gonna get caught with your pants down ... GN. I'd rather a nanny state than a police state anytime. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 It's not a debate about whether someone has an attitude that upsets others...nor a debate about whether Niseko is avie prone or not... You teach people to drive under multiple conditions before setting them loose on a road by themselves. You are supposed to have the knowledge to load, use and unload safely on a chairlift before using it. Why not have the knowledge to ride the back country/side country/Peak safely and without causing undue risk to others before being allowed through the gates. Seems pretty simple, and like common sense to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Black Diamond Sorry thursday I forgot, avalanches don't happen in Niseko. "Avalanche strikes Niseko backcountry, man injured. Feb 20, 2009‎. He was trapped 70cm beneath the slide, and was found by the guides via beacon after about five minutes trapped under the snow." BD you know that avie happened quite a ways from the resort itself and on that day few lifts were running and few, if any gates open. And we both know it was a pretty silly day to be taking people out into the backcountry. As Thursday points out we are talking about Niseko here. The so called 'peak' is only 1308m. We're hardly talking about a soaring alpine summit. I believe the patrol have done an excellent job in managing access through the gates and I don't think anyone can debate this as the record of no avie deaths is testament to their good management. When the risk of avies is high they don't let people access the peak or other high risk areas and it patently works. So with this all in mind are people still seriously suggesting that the only people who should be allowed to go through the gates are those with full avie gear and some training? Personally I think that's ridiculous just on the off chance of some 'freak' avie possibly taking out a few people. I believe we should be able to choose the level of risk we wish to take. And if you are concerned about others causing an avie that will take you out then that's just part of the risk level you need to take into account. Over the last 6 years I have skied off the peak literally more times than I can remember. I have never had a beacon or shovel. I have nothing against those that do, I just don't want them telling me that I have to have these as well. That should be my choice. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 dunno GN, Avalanches happen in scotland on peaks that are smaller than Niseko, last January there was 1 on Etive Mor in Glencoe and thats only just over 1000 metres. The choice for yourself not using avie gear well like you say thats your choice but when your actions have repercussions on others I tend to believe you should err on the side of caution. Other people shouldn't pay for your mistakes. Link to post Share on other sites
black diamond 0 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Because it's uncontrolled, you do have that choice GN, I just personally think it's a bad choice. Because it's uncontrolled I think you should be prepared. Being prepared means that you have knowledge and having konwledge means that you're wearing avie gear when you go out of bounds. If it's a controlled area, meaning checked and stabilized by patrol then yeah you "should" be fine. If you've been here or at any mountain six years you will know about wind loading snow on slopes. Slopes over 30 degrees especially with rolling features are prone to avalanche, no matter how close or far they are away from the gate. I have personally seen skier triggered avalanches happen off the peak (not huge but the potential is there). The patrol make their best guess for that day but do not actually "control" the backcountry. Just because it's easy to access and is skied often doesn't mean it won't slide. GN I have to ask, why don't you want people telling you that you should have avie gear on? As long as they're not rude about it, I think they just want you and others to play safe, no? 6 years tells me you love snow, the best way you can continue loving snow is to be safe. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I have been in the game of skydiving, where I am constantly reminded about people's egos and people being a risk to other people. Education and learning from your own and other's mistakes have been the process for many people. Although we have received training doesn't make us experienced, and even you have had thousands of jumps doesn't mean you are going to make mistakes. Training is a small step that will have big influence on the actions you will take to save lives or putting others to risk. In this game, we see people die. I have just read of a senior instructor who had flown a RC plane into a tandem parachute. Luckily no one died. What amazes me is the lack of "situational awareness" "duty of care" people display and this is a highly experienced professional guy. He is banging his head against the wall now, but this incident serves to show how we lack some basic quality we should have. I am disappointed when I hear of people that believe that they have a choice in the level of risk that can take when clearly this persons action will endanger other lives. What a load of crap. If no one else is gonna get hurt, go for it ! Again, situational awareness. Link to post Share on other sites
deanrobi 2 Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 I have ridden the peak and the bowls a couple of times on each visit I have had to Niseko, now the crew I travel with are not up to the standard required to do these areas and I find myself, after spending most of the day with these guys, ducking to these places for a few runs in the afternoons by myself. I always try to ensure that there are people in these areas when I board them but there has been times when I have ended up by myself in the bowls behind Annapuri and it has made me feel a little uneasy. I know that you should never board alone in these areas but some times the conditions are so good that I'm drawn to them. Are you able to hire the beacons/equipment in Niseko Village? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 BD don't mind being advised about safety, I just don't want mandatory rules brought in that demand from me a certain level of safety, I believe that should be my choice. When you ski out through a gate in Niseko you are making a decision to be fully responsible for your own actions, there's no one else to blame. Most of the times I've skied off the peak I've been alone so having safety gear is next to useless anyway. And Jynxx you can be dissapointed all you like but some of us believe we should have a choice in the level of risk we take even if our choices possibly put others at risk. As far as I'm concerned the others have to take into account their own level of risk they are willing to take as well. And if they are like CB who decided not to ski off the peak because of the actions of others then that's fine by me. I've had years of experience using avie gear, have been caught in one myself and rescued a guy from one. So it's not like I don't know about the benefits of having avie gear. And when heading out into the backcountry I still often have all the gear with me. I don't consider skiing off the peak 'backcountry' though. Whether or not I have avie gear with me off the peak in no way whatsoever puts others at risk. With over 20 years of skiing backcountry, heli skiing and ski mountaineering I have some small idea of what I'm doing and I'm not overly worried about the risk to me posed by those that don't. Also when I'm out skiing alone off the peak I in no way feel that I have any responsibility for others doing the same thing. At the end of the day you may feel the level of risk I take is reckless and stupid but frankly it's my choice not yours. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 See....maybe I am ignorant, but I dont think GN is making poor choices - he knows the area, and knows how to ski it safely. MY issue is more with the people who dont know it, are unaware of the dangers and recklessly ride it however it presents without thinking about safe lines and people below them. First time in - I'll be getting a guide. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Sure, GN you say something ... Not disputing about personal choice. Don't give a toss if you conk out. Just don't be a public nuisance and take someone out. In skydiving, we self-regulate cos if we don't, some other authority steps in and police it. Looks like some people like to make things go that way, bummer. Link to post Share on other sites
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