HelperElfMissy 42 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I was thinking more of who is paying holiday rent Thursday. Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: thursday Originally Posted By: tripitaka Who would have thought this project would have been possible after the global financial crisis and the property crash? Personally I wouldn't pay those prices in Japan but I guess this is targeted towards the Australian market where property investment is still seen as a no-brainer. No it's not. Australian buyers had already gotten in. Alot have already gotten out and made some. That doesn't surprise me. Is it similar to Queenstown where the developers were the ones making the money while the "investors" were the ones who got burnt? Comparing QT with Niseko is a bit difficult though as both offer quite different things and QT is probably got a lot more going for it than snow. However, it's interesting to note that the property market is struggling big-time now, but that's probably not a surprise to those who didn't buy into the hype. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 My sister's friend who loves skiing bought one in Queenstown before the boom. Don't know if she still has it or not but the lift tickets were cheaper then. I wonder what Wanaka is like now, a lot of Japanese kids were staying in backpacker's and people sharing houses for the season. I think it's all about timing. Japan especially is trend driven. Hard to say what happens when you have seen ski resort developments like Naeba, and after all, you are buying into a contract and you don't know how the service/maintenance is going to turn out in the long run. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Quote: That doesn't surprise me. Is it similar to Queenstown where the developers were the ones making the money while the "investors" were the ones who got burnt? Comparing QT with Niseko is a bit difficult though as both offer quite different things and QT is probably got a lot more going for it than snow. However, it's interesting to note that the property market is struggling big-time now, but that's probably not a surprise to those who didn't buy into the hype. It wasn't hype until the global financial crisis hit. I myself invested up here and luckily sold just before the crisis and did very well out of it. Many investors did extremely well, especially those who bought in 5 or 6 years ago. In those early years prices were going up 50%+ per year. Plenty of people made a lot of money, that wasn't hype it was reality. And it definitely wasn't just developers making it. If you had have bought last year before the crisis at the height of the market sure you'd struggle to get your money back now but hey Niseko isn't the only place in the world where that's the case currently. Link to post Share on other sites
acpowman 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 The Vale is owned almost exclusively by Chinese investors. Link to post Share on other sites
Vossy 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 I've been looking for a second home on the Gold Coast but if I like Niseko and prices are reasonable I'll certainly consider investing there. As far as the cost of rental accom goes, cost didn't enter my travel plans. Having not been to Japan before, the fact I haven't been to the snow in over ten years and not taking annual leave from work in 2.5 years I thought I might as well do it properly. Japan is just the start of my travel plans for the end of the year. In saying that though, I didn't think it was expensive at all. Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Go Native Quote: That doesn't surprise me. Is it similar to Queenstown where the developers were the ones making the money while the "investors" were the ones who got burnt? Comparing QT with Niseko is a bit difficult though as both offer quite different things and QT is probably got a lot more going for it than snow. However, it's interesting to note that the property market is struggling big-time now, but that's probably not a surprise to those who didn't buy into the hype. It wasn't hype until the global financial crisis hit. I myself invested up here and luckily sold just before the crisis and did very well out of it. Many investors did extremely well, especially those who bought in 5 or 6 years ago. In those early years prices were going up 50%+ per year. Plenty of people made a lot of money, that wasn't hype it was reality. And it definitely wasn't just developers making it. If you had have bought last year before the crisis at the height of the market sure you'd struggle to get your money back now but hey Niseko isn't the only place in the world where that's the case currently. Well nowhere was "hype" until the GFC hit, but the property boom in all countries has been driven by easy credit. Sure, plenty of people made stacks of money, but you have to balance that with the stacks of people who lost money. That may or may not have happened in Niseko (I don't know), but I do know more renowned resorts such as QT have taken massive hits because of over-development and any hopes of recovery are just pure speculation right now. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Well credit was never easy to get here. For those of us living here it is damned near impossible to get any credit from Japanese banks. The only way we could get credit was if we had property in Australia, we could borrow against the equity in that property for a purchase here through a couple of the Aussie banks, although that is no longer available. Before the GFC they were just about to allow us to borrow against equity in housing we owned in Japan as well but that too is no longer available. So most buyers now are cashed up Asians who have organised credit through their own banks or are so cashed up they don't actually need credit. Quote: The Vale is owned almost exclusively by Chinese investors. Actually much of the costs of buidling The Vale has been underwritten by the construction company which is pretty normal in Japan. If the developer is not able to sell enough of the apartments to meet payments for the construction then I believe the construction company will by default get ownership of much of the building. Link to post Share on other sites
@tokyo 14 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Interesting that Go Native. What sort of time line on those payments in things like this? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm not sure of the exact details or even if the above is 100% correct but that's what I've been led to believe is the case. The sales guys would be under a little pressure I'd say Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Go Native Well credit was never easy to get here. For those of us living here it is damned near impossible to get any credit from Japanese banks. The only way we could get credit was if we had property in Australia, we could borrow against the equity in that property for a purchase here through a couple of the Aussie banks, although that is no longer available. Before the GFC they were just about to allow us to borrow against equity in housing we owned in Japan as well but that too is no longer available. So most buyers now are cashed up Asians who have organised credit through their own banks or are so cashed up they don't actually need credit. The Vale is owned almost exclusively by Chinese investors. Yeah, but if you think about it, Aussie banks lending for resort properties in Japan (a country where property has been falling for 20-odd years) shows just how much of a casino it's been. In the case of Queenstown, which is much more significant for the NZ economy, much financing was coming from dodgy finance companies as opposed to banks with solid Tier 1 capital. It is interesting that Chinese investment is involved. Makes we wonder what exactly they have planned in the future. Link to post Share on other sites
blu 3 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I stayed in Fresh Powder years ago. However, these days I try to support the locals rather than the o/s investors. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: tripitaka Originally Posted By: Go Native Well credit was never easy to get here. For those of us living here it is damned near impossible to get any credit from Japanese banks. The only way we could get credit was if we had property in Australia, we could borrow against the equity in that property for a purchase here through a couple of the Aussie banks, although that is no longer available. Before the GFC they were just about to allow us to borrow against equity in housing we owned in Japan as well but that too is no longer available. So most buyers now are cashed up Asians who have organised credit through their own banks or are so cashed up they don't actually need credit. The Vale is owned almost exclusively by Chinese investors. Yeah, but if you think about it, Aussie banks lending for resort properties in Japan (a country where property has been falling for 20-odd years) shows just how much of a casino it's been. In the case of Queenstown, which is much more significant for the NZ economy, much financing was coming from dodgy finance companies as opposed to banks with solid Tier 1 capital. It is interesting that Chinese investment is involved. Makes we wonder what exactly they have planned in the future. Seriously? Aussie Banks would only lend a portion of the purchase costs in Japan and they wanted significant equity here to do so. There was a short time that banks were talking about easing up on how strict they were but it was rather short lived. But the reality is that to get credit to buy in Thredbo (where the land is leasehold) you need to have an unsecured loan approved anyway (well unsecured against THAT property anyway) - so not a great deal of difference. Majority of folks who bought in Niseko from Aus were not leveraged to the hilt. And therefore were not really forced into a fire sale position with the GFC. I am sure there would have been the odd one or two....but nothing like other property market situations. Link to post Share on other sites
greg 4 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Most people in Niseko are genrally speaking not geared too high as you said Mamabear. I have heard of a couple of people over here that had Yen loans and went pretty pale when the AUD crashed. Pretty much over night the banks came knocking and asking for more security (property)to put against their loans. Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gtrain Most people in Niseko are genrally speaking not geared too high as you said Mamabear. I have heard of a couple of people over here that had Yen loans and went pretty pale when the AUD crashed. Pretty much over night the banks came knocking and asking for more security (property)to put against their loans. What would put me off about buying an "investment" in Niseko is that I think the chances of letting the property outside the ski season are limited. Secondly, I doubt that many people really understand the wear and tear that a harsh environment can have on a property. That's what I've seen with a lot of existing property in Japan. People just get fed up and walk away. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Not living there, but I do believe there is a thriving industry in the summer - white water rafting and MTB activities to start with. Also a fair few Japanese not prepared to go oversea's for the 'Western' Experience coming up to stay in a "western Apartment' during summer... Just what I have been told... Wear and tear. You got it there. But if one was considering investing in any ski property the problems would be the same - one of maintenance. You would be mad to go into something without realizing there are ongoing costs as well as potential income. Link to post Share on other sites
tripitaka 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Mamabear Not living there, but I do believe there is a thriving industry in the summer - white water rafting and MTB activities to start with. Also a fair few Japanese not prepared to go oversea's for the 'Western' Experience coming up to stay in a "western Apartment' during summer... Just what I have been told... Wear and tear. You got it there. But if one was considering investing in any ski property the problems would be the same - one of maintenance. You would be mad to go into something without realizing there are ongoing costs as well as potential income. All good points Mama. All stuff that you could do in Aussie or NZ though, and I'm not sure that rafters or MTBers are a key target for renting luxury condos. If I were going to buy property in Japan, I would go for something very cheap in Okinawa or Miyazaki near the ocean. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 that's where you're missing it. Winter market is the overseas knuckle draggers. Summer market are the Japanese. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 And if you are wanting to own a piece of snow heaven, then the summer rental in Niseko is likely to be better than the summer rental at Thredbo... Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: tripitaka What would put me off about buying an "investment" in Niseko is that I think the chances of letting the property outside the ski season are limited. Secondly, I doubt that many people really understand the wear and tear that a harsh environment can have on a property. That's what I've seen with a lot of existing property in Japan. People just get fed up and walk away. Well a couple of things there. Most of the western apartments and houses here are built to standards way above most of the existing buildings in the area. Most appear to be lasting pretty well. Of course damage can happen due to falling snow but most of the management companies are now pretty good at managing things so that this happens rarely. Summer business, at least for the company I work for, has been doubling each year we've been going. It's taken quite some time for the domestic market to understand and appreciate the type of accommodation we have available. Self-contained condominiums are not exactly common in Japan. Most who stay with us though love it and so the word is spreading. We had a small group of retirees stay with us for over a month a few years back and each year they bring back more friends, the group is up near 20 people now, and they stay for 1 to 2 months over summer escaping the heat down south. In Silver Week our company was ranked 8th in the Shiribeshi region for all accommodations booked through the popular Jalan website (probably the most popular accomm search site in Hokkaido). So we are getting more and more popular. We are also starting to get a lot more SE Asians coming in summer to have an escape from the heat and humidity and to play on some of the awesome golf courses here. You have to remember that most of the businesses here (besides the rafting operations) are very young, most less than 5 years. The oldest western style apartments in the village are only just coming up on their 6th season. We're only just getting started! Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The limited flights to Hokkaido is prohibitive for a golf vacation. I'd rather explore more..... and I did. Next time maybe Rishiri 利尻島 too. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Rishiri is awesome. Really want to go back and climb the peak. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: seemore I went directly through them 2Bed 2Bath for 10 nights $6000 just for accom. (Staying in V206A I think) Then we realised the dates were wrong and they wanted to charge an additional $1500. But we sorted it out after speaking to Jonathon. Is that Aussie dollars, meaning 50,000 yen a night? For that location and brand spanking new, that's not so bad split between four. As going rates go, that is. The place itself looks quite nice, though not especially worthy of inclusion in coffee table books like the best hotels are. As a investment, it sounds like massive forex exposure for what they advertise themselves as a projected 4% return. Australians might as well keep their money at home. Otherwise they could just go for broke and make leveraged bets on forex itself with a fraction of the capital. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 It's the cashed up HK'ers doing most of the buying recently not the Aussies. It may come to surprise to many that Aussies are not the growth market here anymore! Link to post Share on other sites
greg 4 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Property in a Ski field (especially somehwere like Niseko etc) is not just a financial investment it has to be looked at as a lifestyle investment. You have to really want it for personal reasons aswell, otherwise who is going to look at a place with sporadic cash flow, higher maintenace and forex risk. Link to post Share on other sites
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