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10000 yen is the buy price because they cant gift it away. That said you are talking about years of debt owed. In many cases that debt owed is more expensive than buying a place with zero debt.

You can buy a 2 or 3ldk in the area for around 5mil or less. I know 3 people who have pads there. Quick hop to Tokyo the buildings are also nice with pools and gyms. That said the price will never increase so it is not an investment really.

 

It is sad but the Japanese ski industry needs this. For the viable to survive in the long term some resorts need to die. Naeba is a viable resort it needs to cut costs though. That Hotel though is a drain it is just too big!

 

It is sad to say but would it really hurt Myoko to loose sugadaira?

I dont think so it makes Akakura better.

Does Hakuba really need highland minekata or even sun alpina? Dont think that it does.

Shiga kogen could and should contract as well!

Nozawa Onsen is always trying to sell a new image and cant make money.

Hokkaido has a population of 5plus million. There are what 100 ski resorts? How is that number vaible? It just doesnt make any sense in todays J-ski market.

There are so many bubble mistakes out there too many really.

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I think everywhere other than Hakuba should close. The choice for skiers and snowboarders would then be clear.

wink

 

 

As for Naeba, it's a has been a ghost town/village whatever you want to call it for most of the year for a while now. I wish I could have seen it in that peak time, I'm sure it was a ton of fun.

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Originally Posted By: Fattwins


It is sad to say but would it really hurt Myoko to loose sugadaira?
I dont think so it makes Akakura better.
Does Hakuba really need highland minekata or even sun alpina? Dont think that it does.
Shiga kogen could and should contract as well!
Nozawa Onsen is always trying to sell a new image and cant make money.
Hokkaido has a population of 5plus million. There are what 100 ski resorts? How is that number vaible? It just doesnt make any sense in todays J-ski market.
There are so many bubble mistakes out there too many really.


I think it is true that there are far too many ski resorts in Japan for all to be viable...but which to close.

Suginohara has more visitors than Akakura
Sun Alpina three resorts probably more than Happo.....

Obviously some need to close but i guess it just not that simple...
Also with many of the resorts employing local staff in the winter (when there is no work)who is going to pay their wages. And pension owners who can only get guests in the winter months will also suffer.

Needs more thought
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Of course it isn't simple. Most are owned by different businesses all going about their own business and trying to survive with lots of other businesses also dependent on them - not one big "God" making the decisions for the benefit of the ski industry as a whole. I would imagine that few people are prepared to sacrifice their own business/job/lifestyle for the sake of that of their competitors.

 

[Presumably, we mean Suginohara not Sugadaira - they are completely different resorts in different areas of Niigata and Nagano respectively. And it certainly would hurt Myoko to lose Suginohara.]

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I hear you guys...

Fattwins, I reckon you are right and those resorts can restrict their operation to weekends and holidays only, for starters.. The ones that will close immediately have bigger problems, or they have arrived that is a better business decision, I don't know.

As to the local economy, who gets hit will be anyone's guess. Maybe some locals are in agriculture and ski is just their winter gig. Those who have extended into it big time can get hit hard. Those who just came in from outside to open up a pension and relying on that lifestyle they have been sold on will be hit the hardest.

 

Naeba and the Prince group's pot of gold was selling those villas. That was the genius of Tsutsumi. The first International ski resort with a hotel right in front of the runs, enough parking to cover from Tokyo (Japanes people like the "diving to" aspect, one of the occasions they can actually use their Auto) combined with Tennis and Golf, all year around sports. And having a condo there. It sounded like a good investment at that time.

I have a friend who bought one with his brother and sister. I thought that was a great advantage in having lots of brothers and sisters..lol. Anyways, we friends helps him with the maintenance and electricity and stayed there a lot. There were only 2 villas at that time, and we saw the 3 and 4 being built. Never Imagined there would be 9 in the end with some of them 16F high! So, that was the bubble period, it must have been crazy.

I saw The Man himself arriving on a heli when it was a bit posh. I think Karuizawa and Naeba was some of his favorites. So, a good example of a Euro-like development that went belly up.

Probably one of the lessons learnt, and hence Niseko develops the way it is with majority foreign interests, and keeping the demand higher by not overdoing it. Could be another boom and bust.

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Originally Posted By: Jynxx
I hear you guys...
Fattwins, I reckon you are right and those resorts can restrict their operation to weekends and holidays only, for starters.. The ones that will close immediately have bigger problems, or they have arrived that is a better business decision, I don't know.
As to the local economy, who gets hit will be anyone's guess. Maybe some locals are in agriculture and ski is just their winter gig. Those who have extended into it big time can get hit hard. Those who just came in from outside to open up a pension and relying on that lifestyle they have been sold on will be hit the hardest.

Naeba and the Prince group's pot of gold was selling those villas. That was the genius of Tsutsumi. The first International ski resort with a hotel right in front of the runs, enough parking to cover from Tokyo (Japanes people like the "diving to" aspect, one of the occasions they can actually use their Auto) combined with Tennis and Golf, all year around sports. And having a condo there. It sounded like a good investment at that time.
I have a friend who bought one with his brother and sister. I thought that was a great advantage in having lots of brothers and sisters..lol. Anyways, we friends helps him with the maintenance and electricity and stayed there a lot. There were only 2 villas at that time, and we saw the 3 and 4 being built. Never Imagined there would be 9 in the end with some of them 16F high! So, that was the bubble period, it must have been crazy.
I saw The Man himself arriving on a heli when it was a bit posh. I think Karuizawa and Naeba was some of his favorites. So, a good example of a Euro-like development that went belly up.
Probably one of the lessons learnt, and hence Niseko develops the way it is with majority foreign interests, and keeping the demand higher by not overdoing it. Could be another boom and bust.


Interesting read there. On paper it sounds great....2-3 hours drive from 20 million people in the Kanto area. Resort area winter ski and summer tennis/golf and a great hotel (at the time).
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Muikabochi,

Those condos you see on the other side of the road, all 9 of them are called "Villa"

 

Iiyama-noh, not a business plan. Just logical to close it when no one's around on the weekdays.

My local is Spitzingsee in Bavaria, but until the X'mas holiday starts, some of the runs are closed. Sure, I would like them to be open since paying the same price but happy about the fact there is nobody around. Can't cut the cake and eat it.

Rather that than having it totally closed. Rather cut the tail of a lizard.

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The golf course there was not particularly good.

I'm sure lots of the owners up there won't be happy about it closing though.

 

Do they still have lifts up at the Mikuni ski area that closed a number of years ago?

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There's no way Sun Alpina together get more than Happo. I reckon they get less than 47 (47 alone and not Goryu). If there's more than 47, it will be Omachi ski clubs at Kashimayari on discounted season passes. I can see Sun Alpina from my house though, so its cool!

 

For Hakuba, its a relief to see than once folk do stump up for transport to Hakuba and accommodation, they do go to the better resorts and are no so swayed by the discounts at the smaller ones.

 

For Naeba, that sounds like a fairly typical resort development story. Things start off fine, but quickly get overheated. A lot of the "its an investment!" crowd end up with egg on their faces. With resort apartments, it is so easy to just keep building more and more of them. For them, the ETC discount thing has come ten years too late.

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Originally Posted By: Mr Wiggles
There's no way Sun Alpina together get more than Happo. I reckon they get less than 47 (47 alone and not Goryu). If there's more than 47, it will be Omachi ski clubs at Kashimayari on discounted season passes. I can see Sun Alpina from my house though, so its cool!

For Hakuba, its a relief to see than once folk do stump up for transport to Hakuba and accommodation, they do go to the better resorts and are no so swayed by the discounts at the smaller ones.

For Naeba, that sounds like a fairly typical resort development story. Things start off fine, but quickly get overheated. A lot of the "its an investment!" crowd end up with egg on their faces. With resort apartments, it is so easy to just keep building more and more of them. For them, the ETC discount thing has come ten years too late.


yes your right or semi -right not as much as Happo but nearly double Hakuba 47.
Figures from acouple of years ago. This takes in all the sunalpina resorts

Happo -417,000
SunAlpina - 310,000
Hakuba 47 - 160,000

and as well
Goryu - 360,000
tsugaike -352,000
Cortina - 126,000
Iwatake - 202,000
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In the Hakuba Shimbun numbers, Goryu is now always ahead of Happo.

 

Kashimayari was sold a couple of years ago for only 5.5 oku to a company that runs car parks. When they bought it in 2006?, the resort was only getting 100,000 a season. Aokiko gets next to no customers and Sano does better but still way less than Kashimayari. I can't see the total being 300,000. There simply isn't that number of people visible on the slopes as at Goryu or Happo.

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I'm not sure I trust some of the numbers thrown about. There's a few in my area that boast numbers that just seem impossible, having seen how many people are on the slopes every day. May be mistaken of course, but some just seem too unrealistic.

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Can some kind soul tell me what this means (I understand most of the words, just not the main point/nuance if that makes sense!)

 

八方尾根スキー場ã®æŠ±ãˆã¦ã„ã‚‹å•é¡Œã¯ä½™ã‚Šã«ã‚‚多ã™ãŽã€èµ·æ­»å›žç”Ÿç­–ã¯å®¹æ˜“ãªã“ã¨ã§ã¯é”æˆã§ããªã„ã¨æ€ã†

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Another 'rumour' so remember that, but a friend who used to work at Prince told me that 60% of the staff there have 'retired' in the last few months (and coming month).

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OK muika, it says:

 

Happo-one ski jyo has so many problems to adress that the plan for recovery from an imminent death is not easy to achieve- (I, We, Someone?) think

 

in plain English, someone thinks it's just not one or two problems to fix up Happo one but whatever it takes is not an easy one

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Happo had a chance 2 years ago to sell but didnt. That said much the same reason that Nozawa onsen most likely will never fail is..

the banks keep these people afloat. The amount of money flowing into the bank via paychecks or whatever is still worth while. Untill the bank says that they will no longer support the lift companies nothing will well and truely change.

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Although this article is a couple of years old I thought this was an interesting insight on Nozawa and relevant to what's happening with so many ski resorts in Japan now. A couple of obvious typos though - A 95 year old resort? Skiing introduced by an Australian?

 

Nagano resort on slippery economic slope: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070316f1.html

 

Basically this article seems to say that the villagers themselves are sacrificing to keep it open. But what happens when the burden gets too great and/or the village keeps depopulating?

 

Got some comments on Myoko, Suginohara, etc. but will list them later

 

 

 

 

 

 

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