JA2340 16 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Originally Posted By: Donza Niseko is like a well manicured golf course with great lies, friendly rolls and reachable par 5's. Hakuba is like St Andrews, its rough, its wild but if you get a three on the road hole you'll remember it for the rest of your life. What is this?? A golf thread? Who here has been to St Andrews (or even wants to go there? - not me, for one!) Golf, the perfect way to ruin a good, and interesting, walk! Link to post Share on other sites
MayorQuimby 0 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Quote: its wild but if you get a three on the road hole you'll remember it for the rest of your life. Link to post Share on other sites
MayorQuimby 0 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Unless of course the wild refers to all the earth & rocks on display on the courses. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Originally Posted By: JA OK, I'll bite! There are those who say that you'll drink to anything! The funny thing is I have never been a big drinker - would go MONTHS without so much as a glass of wine. But I have been having an awful lot of fun lately ....and an awful lot of it associated with my new passion for snow sports! So I blame you lot!! Link to post Share on other sites
Greenroome 0 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Mamabear ....and an awful lot of it associated with my new passion for snow sports! And karaoke, if I recall correctly. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Greenroome And karaoke, if I recall correctly. LOL!! I cant be the only one grasping for a microphone and certain humiliation when I have had a few.... Anyway this is WAY I suggest we return to discussing Hakuba vs Niseko - a much more intesting subject. Link to post Share on other sites
rach 1 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'm planning to check out Niseko next season at long last. Interesting post. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Donza In all fairness in a good season Hakuba would offer many many times more off groomer opportunities than Niseko. Just consider that Hakuba isn't just a single mountain like Niseko. Rather its a valley with 6-7 or so resorts. So diverse, so big. Niseko is like a well manicured golf course with great lies, friendly rolls and reachable par 5's. Hakuba is like St Andrews, its rough, its wild but if you get a three on the road hole you'll remember it for the rest of your life. If you think St Andrews is hard then you should try Carnoustie!! JA St. Andrews, for the record, is a nice wee town regardless of the fact its smack dab in Fife ( ) Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 St. Andrews, been there ! Agreed, it is a nice town. I even played on it once when I was a kid. Golf is a game of keeping a steady heart. Good excuse for a walk. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I love park golf! Can't stand playing the real game but for some strange reason don't mind watching it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_golf For those that don't know what park golf is. Link to post Share on other sites
treasure 0 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Have come in late on this topic, but here are my observations. A lot of the talk seems to be centred on off piste skiing. . At least 70% of the skiing public do not have the skills ,or, the inclination to go off piste. Any look at the slopes at Niseko will see four times as many people on the groomers as going off piste even when the areas are open.As much as a lot of readers of forums like this do go off piste,us forum members would be lucky to be 10% of the skiing public. The resorts gain the vast majority of their income from skiers who are happy to stay on piste. Why would they change their policies for a few.Niseko should be commended for the effort they do put in though. Hakuba is a different kettle of fish.Apart from back country there are few areas that permit skiing off piste.As stated, some of this is due to inward thinking on behalf of the resorts.Also the resorts in Hakuba that have inbound trees can be quite dangerous in regard to slides(steeper terrain), and the fact that a lot of the good looking areas are above open groomed areas.The back country is awesome, but way above the abilities of the average punter. Hakuba needs some basic forward thinking to cater to an increasing overseas visitor numbers. The ticketing system, in particular the Happy Seven passes, need to be able to be used as a single ticket which can be used at any resort at any time of the day, including multiple places on the same day. At the moment, a voucher needs to be cashed in each day at the resort you wish to ski at, and then you are locked in to that resort for the whole day.This is the biggest complaint i hear from visitors.Surely the resorts can work together to come up with a single all mtn pass. Hakuba's other main problem is with transport between the various resorts. I guess we have all been spoilt by the system at Niseko. Once again it will take co-operation between the resorts to come up with a reliable and timely inter resort service. There are some big money plans for Hakuba. Whether these plans come to fruition will depend on the local companies playing the game. To put it into perspective...Niseko's skier numbers these days are predominantly visitors from overseas. Hakuba's predominant visitors are locals, by a huge margin.As with Japanese culture, the locals will not complain, so why would the companies do anything to change. As overseas visitors increase in Hakuba (maybe)things may start to happen. I get really cheesed off when i see the local ski patrols in Hakuba hounding people who have ducked the ropes, but at the same time do nothing about groups of young boarders sitting in the middle of a black run (all locals by the way).They seem to condone this dangerous practice even though the skiers code of resposibility is posted everywhere. I have done two holiday trips to Niseko, and spent the last two seasons in Hakuba, and this is just the way i see it. Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Pow 52 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Birdman Have come in late on this topic, but here are my observations. A lot of the talk seems to be centred on off piste skiing. . At least 70% of the skiing public do not have the skills ,or, the inclination to go off piste. Any look at the slopes at Niseko will see four times as many people on the groomers as going off piste even when the areas are open.As much as a lot of readers of forums like this do go off piste,us forum members would be lucky to be 10% of the skiing public. The resorts gain the vast majority of their income from skiers who are happy to stay on piste. Why would they change their policies for a few. Agreed but the money is in families and mixed ability groups. If one or more member(s) of a family / group are able to ride advanced off-piste terrain then this is often the determining factor on choice of destination. With the exception of places like Kurodake on Hokkaido and La Grave in France, most mountains offer a beginner and intermediate experience and suffer when it comes to offering advanced terrain - whether it be steep or deep or treed or all three. Families and groups will go to resorts that tick as many boxes for them. For the moment, it would seem that the Niseko Resort Area ticks more boxes for most people visiting Japan. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 What amazes me is that on the whole the domestic market has been decreasing over the years in Japan with the only real promise of growth coming from the international market, yet most of the resorts do little to market to or learn about this lucrative market. Few, if any, hire foreign people with experience in ski resort management from successful international resorts. Even here in Niseko the resort management are still largely completely ignorant of the needs and wants of an affluent foreign market. I heard today that the general manager of Tokyu here was thinking of ways to make more money from lift passes and was considering making it possible to only buy up to 2 day passes. This is the sort of ridiculous thinking that still prevails at the most successful international resort in the country! It's actually kind of sad really to witness just how completely and utterly inept they are. Link to post Share on other sites
treasure 0 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: MikePow [For the moment, it would seem that the Niseko Resort Area ticks more boxes for most people visiting Japan. Agreed. That is why Hakuba resorts need to do some serious thinking. Both Niseko and Hakuba offer good things. They are quite different, and isn't that a good thing. Hopefully Hakuba can learn from other places and pick up on the good points, whilst retaining it's own unique identity. I really think the injection of foreign capital into Niseko has at least brought some fresher ideas. Will it happen in Hakuba? Not untill the old brigade have ben pushed aside. Love both places,but ended up buying my piece of paradise in Hakuba. I, like many, will welcome some changes in Hakuba. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I wonder what would happen if the "brains trust" that is SnowJapan was tapped by the managers of these resorts. Personally I think that looking back over this thread alone there are enough idea's/suggestions in here to perhaps not move mountains - but maybe move people to mountains <wink>. Great idea's and analysis held herewithin. Link to post Share on other sites
SnowJapan Admin SnowJapan 178 Posted March 24, 2009 SnowJapan Admin Share Posted March 24, 2009 Actually, last season we put together a report (for want of a better word) that included some links and info from these Forums and some of these issues were discussed with management at a number of resorts that we have contacts at - and I believe SJ1 has plans to do the same again this spring as well as trying to make contact and headway with other resorts. (I think there's a plan to ask people on here for questions/comments/ideas that can be put directly to resort management). I am not really involved with that, but it is always interesting to hear how they react - sometimes they dismiss ideas out of hand, just not interested, while other times at least listen with interest.... I think some things will change, just very slowly. Link to post Share on other sites
TJ OZ 0 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 The question is who wants change. I have a vested interest in the area however I fell in love with the place many years ago before I lived here. Sure I have to make a dollar to live but I don't necessarily want to see the place change. When I first came here it had easy access powder everyday. I hear from many punters that the powder is difficult to find. They come here on there cheap arse package deals with no research and want endless powder on all the easy runs as there agent has told them. Please send them to Niseko. A helpful hand can show people what Hakuba has to offer and just like the Cortina debate in another thread the secrets (or progress) are let out and we have to move to the next spot. So be it. There is seriously no end to what is available here. I want Hakuba to give to others what it has given to me - a great Japanese experience, great snow, big mountains and a lot of fun. I can see the vultures moving in (maybe some see me as being one of them, albeit small time). I however want to live here, educate my children here, be apart of the community and support others who have a 500 year old history here. The ball has started rolling in Hakuba and it will be interesting to see what happens. Everybody is saying do this, do that, but at the end of the day if nothing gets done I will still be enjoying myself with the few people that come and stay with me. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 TJ I don't know you but at least you sound like you know a bit of Shinshu area and peoples ways and tradition. You will do fine! My grandmother comes from that area, and her family prominence goes back a long way. Japan has in the past been through high economic growth of the 70's, the bubble, lot's of crazy investment in tourism and theme parks and we all know the result. It is quite astonishing that people can not understand that ski resorts are like theme parks. So, the locals will decide if they want that kind of development and infrastructure. They probably don't want to rely on the so called lucrative foreign market to their credit. If it is not to the Gaijin liking, go somewhere else. Canada, US, Europe. Shinshu has it's charm and it's not Shiga, or Niseko or Naeba. Maybe it hasn't occured to some people Japan caters for Japanese demands. Also, I don't believe foreign management in the area of ski resort management will advance local and Japanese economy. It's not Sony corp. or Auto manufacturing. Japan will always have it's Nen-Koh-JyoRetsu management system and if one has any understanding of the Japanese language, that it establishes hierarchy, one would not be talking like some people on this forum about their inaptitude. I call it back seat drivers. It might be interesting to quote some (a lot) of the Japanese tourists I have served. "When you have been to Australia once, once is enough" " I like Hawaii, or Europe better" I not talking backpacking crowd here.. And Japanese are one of the well traveled people in the world, sure on package tours but aren't most Gaijin there in Japan, too. So, foreign market. Define that ! Europeans, Brits, North Americans, Australians ?.. I can understand the Japanese management being reluctant to get advice from the Australian tourist sector. Tokyu has been in property development in WA Australia since 80's. Most Japanese company has first hand experience with problems between management and workers in Australia. Also, if one argues that one loves the country like Japan and want to consider themselves local (not long term visitors) why would you insist in having it catered for foreign market or follow their management system. Sounds like someone wants to exploit that to their own advantage, not for the Japanese community. Link to post Share on other sites
JA2340 16 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Jynxx It is quite astonishing that people can not understand that ski resorts are like theme parks. So, the locals will decide if they want that kind of development and infrastructure. They probably don't want to rely on the so called lucrative foreign market to their credit. Not sure what you are geting at, here. Sure the locals will decide. As they should! And as we, in Oz would expect to be able to do for our own place) but IF they are happy to accept the gaigin money, and IF they want more of it (both fairly big IFs, to my mind) then they will HAVE TO change. Originally Posted By: Jynxx If it is not to the Gaijin liking, go somewhere else. Canada, US, Europe. You are suggesting that the gaigin should not go to Japan if the current setup is not to our liking? Does that mean we should not be able to make suggestions for "improvements" to infrastructure, processes and management which would increase the foreign income for an area? I don't think so. Having made these suggestions, it is up to the management of the resorts as to whether they take these ideas on board and act on them or not. IF they want the money from overseas visitors, they will have to change some things to improve the attraction - like increasing the number of staff who speak, or at least understand, basic English. It is up to the management of the town to change the local perception of gaigin as a people to be ripped off for as much as they can be done for. (I refer to a particular "restaurant" where 8 very small shrimp, deep fried whole - shell, head and all , was listed on the English menu as "Deep Fried River Fish" and charged at 700yen). It is up to the local businesses to increase the range of foods listed on the english menu to the point of having the same items listed. (again, I was confronted with an English menu this year which had about 20 items, while the table beside us had a Japanese menu which ran to about 3 pages and had upwards of 60 items listed). That the prices were also different was a concern as well. It is all very well to say "go elsewhere" but what about people like GN who LIVE there and see that some changes would be beneficial to the profitability of the resort, to the economy of the area and, ultimately, to the economy of the nation? Do you just discount them and tell them to "go elsewhere"? Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 JA you like nitpicking don't you. Ultimatly, Japanese local detail don't have to do a thing to change to impress or satisfy the foreign crowd, You sound like some Americans who think they can be like Americans where ever they are. Well guess what? Surprise! you can't read the menu, Tough! Do you think every restaurant in Germany has a English menu or every German speak English? What you are asking is like this. At one time the Australian export was 60% reliant on the Japanese market. Does that mean little local towns like Tamworth has to have a Japanese Miso and Rice with raw eggs breakfast menu in motels and and a increase in Japanese menu in restaurants just because the enonomy of the nation was reliant on the Japanese? They don't even do that in the Gold Coast Go to chinatown in Sydney. They have a chinese menu and an English menu and untill a little way back, the price was different and not so many meals on the English one. Nimbin has local price and tourist price for some food outlets. Shrimps are cheap in OZ. Not elsewhere like Europe or Japan. A dollar's worth is like 5 dollars in Germany. And yes, you are meant to eat the head on those small ones. Yes, Japanese eat the whole fish with head when they are small. No, you are not getting ripped off. GN chose to live there. He is entitled to his way of idealizing change. I am saying only a few resorts are prepared to cater for the foreign market or wants to do so. But most of them essentially wants to cater for the Japanese. Why? Because the Japanese clients and resorts like it that way and can tell anyone to mind their own business. They don't want a club med, so be it. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Most big ski resorts cater for an international crowd as well .... it is the kind of thing that people travel to do, and enjoy experiencing variety in. It is not like this is a discussion of asking Japan to change while the rest of the world stands still. This is simply a group of users of a service who have accessed the service in other countries as well - making suggestions for changes that might bring more profitability (and increase the holiday factor for tourists) to the resorts. We love Japan. We love the old Japan. Some of the old ways are lovely. Not knocking it. No need to arc up and get nasty about how boring Australia is as a more than one time tourist destination! In any case I think my Japanese friends who have emigrated to Australia might disagree with you - each to his own. Thank God we have that freedom to travel and choose our country of residence, rather than be stuck where we were born. I dont think the Aussie resorts 'do' things particularly well in many aspects either, but they are easy for me to visit without paying attention to because it is my 'home turf', away from home you see things that locals don't because your knowledge base is limited and the easy things for locals - like using the money, and ordering food - become big adventures. On my last trip ....Zermatt did it well ...as far as cities, Paris and Milan did not, Munich did... We only got by in Paris because Papa speaks French, and in Milan because I speak Italian. In Japan we had to employ the use of eldest child slave labour interpretation service quite a few times. It is not for me about speaking English so much as having clear options available. In Italy the children perused the Italian menu because it had pictures, and I simly steared them away from the 'cavallo'. In Milan they presented us with a menu that had the dish listed in German, then underneath in French, italian and English - perhaps other languages I was not really looking that hard. I think if people did not care - they would not join these forums - they would just book at Whistler next year. But the people here do care. They mostly learn a little Japanese and want to see the places they love do well. Link to post Share on other sites
JA2340 16 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Hey, settle! Originally Posted By: Jynxx Ultimatly, Japanese local detail don't have to do a thing to change to impress or satisfy the foreign crowd If they want to encourage more visits for longer to the snow resorts, yes, they DO! Originally Posted By: Jynxx You sound like some Americans who think they can be like Americans where ever they are. Well guess what? Surprise! you can't read the menu, Tough! Of course they can be like Americans wherever they are! To suggest otherwise is dumb! What they should NOT do (and many DO do) is expect everyone else to be like they are That is dumb, too! My point is that, if these RESORTS (not talking about everywhere in the place, just the tourist places that want more visitors to make up for the loss of local custom) want to encourage more gaigin to visit, they have to do some things a little differently. - Like provide menus that can be read by the target market, Like have employees with a reasonable grasp of languages other than the local. These things are simple to achieve and are NOT just for Japan, every place that wants more foreign tourists should have these minor things in place. Originally Posted By: Jynxx What you are asking is like this. NO, NO, NO!! That is NOT what I am asking. What I am asking is that places that WANT more foreign tourists, make some concessions in terms of menu, and language able staff. If they do not want the foreign cash, then fine! Stay as is and let the snow resorts die because of lack of patronage by locals. That is the whole point! Originally Posted By: Jynxx At one time the Australian export was 60% reliant on the Japanese market. Does that mean little local towns like Tamworth has to have a Japanese Miso and Rice with raw eggs breakfast menu in motels and and a increase in Japanese menu in restaurants just because the enonomy of the nation was reliant on the Japanese? They don't even do that in the Gold Coast For someone who has lived in a number of countries, you display a singular lack of understanding of how the tourist system works. Nowhere have I suggested that the manus should include English food! Just the same menu as usual, with the dishes translated into English. If Tamworth were to be actively marketing itself as a destination for, say, Inuit people, and wanted them to come in increasing numbers - then it would be imperative that the local businesses made some concessions, hired staff with the language skills (or trained existing staff) and offered manus in that language. In the same way, if the Japanese snow indusyrt wants to reap the monetary benefit of the influx of gaigin (and particularly Australian) visitoirs, they MUST make these same concessions. Otherwise - watch the exit. Originally Posted By: Jynxx I am saying only a few resorts are prepared to cater for the foreign market or wants to do so. But most of them essentially wants to cater for the Japanese. Why? Because the Japanese clients and resorts like it that way and can tell anyone to mind their own business. They don't want a club med, so be it. BUT, and GN has pointed this out time and again, even Niseko (which is heavily targetted at the Australian visitor) has an aversion to changing. Originally Posted By: GN What amazes me is that on the whole the domestic market has been decreasing over the years in Japan with the only real promise of growth coming from the international market, yet most of the resorts do little to market to or learn about this lucrative market. Few, if any, hire foreign people with experience in ski resort management from successful international resorts. Even here in Niseko the resort management are still largely completely ignorant of the needs and wants of an affluent foreign market. (BTW, the emphasis is mine, not GN's) nitpicking? I don't consider this to be nitpicking - if I were to pick some nits, I'd be on about spelling, punctuation etc rather than addressing the substance of the issue. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 JA, I don't know how your brain works, but it seems to me you display only one way of (namely your way of) comprehending my statement. I don't know what makes you an expert in tourism. Or how many areas you have visited in your lifetime but one thing for sure is I talk apples and you understand bananas. I find your argument lacking in substance as much as you do mine.. I am just pointing out that the so called lucrative market is a hype created by some of the forum members. Again, compare it with Gold Coast, How many Japanese or Arabs do you see... Do the Gold Coast cater for that market? Sure there are lots of Japas who lives there, wor-holi, but the avarage tourist stays there 2 days or so because it's part of the package. Still there are more people there than in a Japanese ski resort. So what kind of economics are we talking about. Macro? Micro? If the Japanese resorts are totally relying on the foreign market, it is a mistake, Do you realize that. You sound like the Japanese economy relies on tourism from abroad. They have Disney land in Japan. The Japanese go there while most of the world go to LA. If Niseko caters for Aussies, cool, they have a niche market. I was talking Hakuba before. This hire successful resort management people Assumption being foreigners... Lots of Top Japa Tourism management people are Swiss Hotel management Uni graduates. Maybe you never heard of Mr.Tsutsumi of the Prince Hotel Group and Seibu, He is brilliant. Maybe I should point out the Hotel and tourist management school in Blue Mountains is Japanese interest. Ma'bear sorry it sounds harsh to you but that is the truth. As I said this is not the comment from backpackers or wor-holi people. Lot's of Japanese young people wants to drop out and stay in Australia and smoke, but they are quite happy to stay for a few months at a time. It's not like they want to make a living there.. Ma'bear I find it interesting that there are a lot of Japanese women who wants to marry Aussies and migrate there, but you don't see many Japanese men marrying Aussie girls and staying there, or am I wrong? Again small population we are talking here anyways. Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Hok for early season. Hak for mid or late season. Don't care about ammenities or 'culture'. Just want to ski. Link to post Share on other sites
Mudguts 0 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Deep down Japanese ski resorts don't want foreign tourists. That's way nothing changes to accomodate them. Underneath the friendly facade Japan is xenophobic. Sucks! Link to post Share on other sites
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