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Hakuba vs Niseko - A 37 year old Australian Snowboarders opinion


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OK...

 

So we have read this type of thing 1000 times, but I am putting this review up based on my opinions.

 

I have been to Japan for the last 4 seasons straight (currently in the hotel in Hakuba)... Mar 2006 in Niseko, Feb 2007 in Niseko, Dec 2007/Jan 2008 in Niseko, and Feb/Mar 2009 in Hakuba. I have come here to Hakuba with my wife, and she came last year to Niseko as a virtual beginner..

 

So... Here is some comparisons.

 

Getting to resorts from Australia - The winner - Hakuba... Plane landed at 6am and in Hotel room by lunch time after taking train, then bullet train then bus.. Easy work..

Niseko - Land in at 6am, then transfer on bus to Haneda airport, wait for about 3 hours and get flight to Chitose, wait for about 2.5 hours and get bus to Niseko... Arrive by dinner time...

 

Accommodation - I have stayed at Pensions in Niseko (Full Note, and Ru Ru), and am staying at Hotel La Niege Honkan in Hakuuba.

From a cost perspective, Pensions win, but from a luxury perspective, La Niege wins... So it realy comes down to what you want at the time. Won't knock either!!!

 

Onsens - Niseko wins hands down. A variety of nice indoor/outdoor onsens within easy walking distance if staying in Hirafu... Hakuba has them, but they are far more expensive (2-3 times the price) and usually not as much character... We haven't visited many because so spread out.

 

Food - Both have great food... But Niseko has access to crab, and the food you can get on Hokkaido ROCKS... Fresh natural food... Plus food on the mountain during lunch is better as well... The big clincher... Cost... Niseko is about 10-20% cheaper when comparing yen to yen for food.

 

Getting Around - When I have stayed at Niseko, I have stayed in Hirafu village, and there is plenty around and easy to get to whether it be Seico Mart, a good restaurant, or the onsens... It is on a hill and that is a pain in the butt BUT Hakuba is SOOOOOO spread out, and with the night bus running at such long intervals, the winner here is Niseko... BTW the night bus stopped running on 8 March so have to take taxi's and they are about 50% more expensive than Niseko (used them to go from Kutchan to Niseko several times).

 

Lift passes - Niseko you pay for one pass for however long, and only when that pass runs out do you have to worry about taking it back for a refund... The pass was good for the 4 Niseko resorts (you can ski from resort to resort easily and if need be catch a bus home or ski home... Can go to all 4 in one day if you are fit enough.

 

In Hakuba, you have to take the pass back at the end of each day and get a refund, then the next day, you have to go to lift counter and get another... Plus they don't work at neighbouring resorts, which means if you started the morning at Happone and then went to Hakuba 47, you would need to buy two different tickets, even though they are about 2 km apart.

We had purchased 10 day passes (10 of 14 days) but HAVE to go to the ticket counter EVERY DAY and have to return the pass EVERYDAY.

 

The 'Aussie' Invasion - Look... We have been to both places and to be quite honest, the Aussies have infiltrated both places to such an extent that you can't really say that one is worse than the other. Niseko does have the advantage however that much of the signage is in English, and you can get more information out of people (say to do lessons, go back country, find out where the good onsen is or where one is because the writing is in Kanji). Aussies can be as good or bad in both places...

 

Now the big one...

The snow boarding - Please note that I am 37 and like big free riding... Enjoy trees and powder.... My wife is 28 and she is just getting comfortable on a board going over various terrain... We are not big on snowboard parks and leave that to the younger crowd.... Off Piste on fresh powder is our idea of perfect snow... Throw a few trees in the mix is great too..

Hakuba - Have been to Happone, Hakuuba 47, Iwatake, Tsuagike Kogen and Goryu... Hakuba 47 from a snowboarders perspective IMHO is the most well suited to us of these resorts. Nice runs on groomers with minimal moguls. A boarder cross park to give us something different, and a great snowboard park IF we wanted to give that a crack...

The rest are alright but really are catering for skiiers with HEAPS of moguls.... Especially when covered in ice as season is poor, they are the snowboarders worst FRIEND.

However, limited tree runs (I don't think I have found any 'legal' tree runs in Hakuba!!!) and as we noted with our friends and just on the lifts, the snow patrol is ready to pounce if you go under the ropes.. We saw on several occasions Snow patrol on snow mobiles sitting waiting at the bottom of runs ready to get people who enjoyed a bit of 'off-piste' action

Unfortunately, we have been here in the 'worst' season for 40 years, so can't comment on how good their powder COULD be, but if you can't try off piste or go thru the trees, then it is hard to pass judgement!!!

Goryu in our opinion is pretty poor... You have some very easy places which is great if learning BUT even on a weekday in a crap season, you are competing with 5000 other people. They have one black run, and that is full of moguls and then you have cat tracks. Their double black runs, were closed to the public so unsure if moguls or good fun for boarding!!!

 

Niseko - I have been there early season, mid season and late season and on two of the three occasions, they complained how CRAP the snow was!!! It still rocked compared to Hakuba... Nice fluffy stuff and on each occasion EVEN in their CRAP seasons, we got at least 1 or 2 days with waist deep pow!!!

Tree runs! Go for it! Off piste - No drama.... I think in Niseko I spent about 10% of my time on the groomers and the rest of the time off piste...

 

So... That is my opinion... I hope it can help some people... Please note that Hakuba is probably HEAPS better for skiiers and if the season had been better, then they could probably boast about better snow fall... But at this point in time, I will definitely be going back to Hokkaido in the future....

 

Would be good if people worked out what was best for them... as we didn't comment on bars... night life etc and of course what is good for us, might not be the case for others as they might LOVE moguls!!! Or ice!!

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Originally Posted By: grantj71
OK...
In Hakuba, you have to take the pass back at the end of each day and get a refund, then the next day, you have to go to lift counter and get another... Plus they don't work at neighbouring resorts, which means if you started the morning at Happone and then went to Hakuba 47, you would need to buy two different tickets, even though they are about 2 km apart.
We had purchased 10 day passes (10 of 14 days) but HAVE to go to the ticket counter EVERY DAY and have to return the pass EVERYDAY.


Great write up and sounds about right for this year.

Just a note on the passes in Hakuba
You can buy a ALPEN pass which you can use at the 3 different resorts of Happo/Iwatake/Tsugaike on the same day..all interconnected by shuttle bus.
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Interesting read.

 

Niseko clearly has a lot of advantages for the visitor from outside of Japan not least of all the consistency and quality of powder (particularly lower down the mountain) and 'legal' access to tree skiing.

 

Hakuba resorts have plenty of safe inbounds tree skiing areas that could be opened up and controlled effectively by resorts, but they appear to be quite uninterested in developing that opportunity.

 

Of course the best that Hakuba has to offer is outside of the resorts themselves IMO, but that doesn't have the mass market appeal. Why can't a resort like Hakuba 47/Goryu get it's act together to open up the safe tree skiing and crack down hard on what really is unsafe? So much potential and so little imagination.

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Avi gear and training on the customer side is simply a ridiculous expectation. So everyone wanting to ride in the trees within a resort boundary should have avi gear and a certificate of some kind? Let's be real, Hakuba could very easily set up a gate system like in Niseko for accessing areas that have real dangers. And there are many inbounds treed areas that present little if any dangers at all that are still roped off at many Japanese resorts. It's just many Japanese resorts just don't want to take on any extra responsibility and most are run by old men who can barely even grasp the concept of change and are probably happy if they never have to actually make another decision before they retire. Hell that just about sums up most of the way this country runs.

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What makes you think that because it is a resort it is safe. Delusions! Nothing has changed, it is a mountain, and nature can kill you. My friend and I nearly got killed between Annupuri and Hirafu, mere 400 m traverse on the top. Blizzard conditions and an avalanche nearly got us. Because there are lifts around people think it's safe and treat it like some department store or disneyland. If any of you have done patrol work ....dragging someone out of trees... say no more.

GN, you know there are idiots on the piste. To assume that these people can handle off piste conditions without causing danger to other people is a ridiculous expectation.

As I said, more patrols needed, needs to speak English, limit to manpower avail and expense. Also, liability.

I agree that there is a way to open it up. Considering the Japanese likings to accreditation, avi training is a valid and acceptable option.

With trees, people get hurt or kill themselves with what is behind the tree.

No difference if it is in or out of the resort boundary.

 

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Yeah, but on piste tree access is really becoming the world accpeted norm. 20 years ago Bungee Jumping was for extremists - today Ma and Pa Kettle are doing it...

 

Change happens.

 

And so do accidents - the slide in Zermatt while I was there this year swept up a number of walkers on the 'safe' walking trail as well as a few skiers on an intermediate piste... no trees there Jynxx ...and none of them would have been carrying gear or transponders. Yet the vast majority of people skiing in trees can handle it - if you give it a first time crack and cant handle it - then you bail - after all there is a piste right there nearby to bail onto. In bounds trees are a very good option for progressional learning - and having them allows people to learn to ride back country before REALLY going backcountry... thatHAS to be a safety plus.

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Quote:

In bounds trees are a very good option for progressional learning....

 

Your kidding yourself.. Have you never heard of Tree Wells !?

 

The branches of the tree shelter the area surrounding the tree trunk from snowfall. Thus a pocket of air or loose snow can form in the vicinity of the trunk. Tree wells are encountered in off-piste or ungroomed trails and on UNGROOMED PISTE BOUNDARIES. The risk of encountering a tree well is greatest during and immediately following a heavy snowstorm. Low hanging branches can further contribute to forming a tree well, as they efficiently shelter the area surrounding the trunk. Wells have been observed to be as deep as 20 feet.

An unsuspecting skier or snowboarder can get trapped in a tree well, unable to free themselves. It is very difficult to get out of a tree well without assistance. In two experiments conducted in North America in which volunteers were temporarily placed in a tree well, 90% were unable to rescue themselves. Often the skier or snowboarder is injured during the incident, dislocating a limb or hitting his/her head, further decreasing chances of survival. Frequently the skier or snowboarder ends up in the well head first, complicating recovery efforts.

 

This is the kind of BS the patrol have to deal with. Skiing and boarding on the piste for 20 years doesn't make you any smart off piste.

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Good Reading BUT NOW you have really let all the secrets of Niseko out.

 

I think Niseko is over priced, full of Aussies, Skiing is not great, Snowfall is unreliable, can't get around in the village as it is on a icy hilly road and you fall over all the time. Food is not great and expensive, really hard to get to from Australia, not safe with fighting drunken aussies everywhere. razz

 

I think EVERYONE should go to Hakuba or maybe Furano. evilgrin

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Hey, Jynxx, easy with the attitude, huh.

 

In bounds tree areas, if properly controlled by patrol, ARE a valid way to extend your skiing ability. Don't see how you could argue against that.

 

True, there may be some potential problems, but that is why patrol is there, to assess the dangers and allow access to areas that pose the least (or the most acceptable) risk.

 

If they are hamstrung by the policy of the resort, so that they are not allowed to assess the treed areas, abnd there is a blanket ban on anywhere that is not groomed, they are doomed to extinction, as people just will not return.

 

I quote Furano as exhibit 1 - I will not be back simply because the ropes are within inches of the groomed runs and patrol are particularly fierce. I have mentioned this plenty of times, and I believe that they are not doing themselves any favours with regard to returning customers. OTOH, Kamui would be a great place to return to as the relaxed attitude to "out of bounds" is a joy!

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Originally Posted By: Jynxx
Quote:
In bounds trees are a very good option for progressional learning....

Your kidding yourself.. Have you never heard of Tree Wells !?


Thankfully this is not as big a risk in the Niseko United Ski Area where the trees are predominantly decidious not coniferous.
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Originally Posted By: Davo
Of course the best that Hakuba has to offer is outside of the resorts themselves IMO, but that doesn't have the mass market appeal. Why can't a resort like Hakuba 47/Goryu get it's act together to open up the safe tree skiing and crack down hard on what really is unsafe? So much potential and so little imagination.


This seems to be one of the more common complaints about the Hakuba area. However Hakuba 47 has opened up a few tree runs in a program known as the "Double Black Diamond Club". I believe it involves attending a 30 minute safety seminar, after which you're given a pass (arm band?) that allows you to ski the designated tree areas. It costs 1000 yen but it's valid for the entire season. The link to the link can be found here: http://www.snowjapanforums.com/ubbthread...html#Post302512
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Originally Posted By: MikePow
Originally Posted By: Jynxx
Quote:
In bounds trees are a very good option for progressional learning....

Your kidding yourself.. Have you never heard of Tree Wells !?


Thankfully this is not as big a risk in the Niseko United Ski Area where the trees are predominantly decidious not coniferous.


MP...can you explain that one ...please.. wakaranai
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There are plenty of areas to ski trees in Hakuba. Many of them are open to ski and many are not. Happo really doesn't care except for the face area. I dont think gates are needed we don't use them in Canada and things are fine. Tree wells in Japan are not as much of an issue as they are in North America. Not many small pine trees. Still the speed that can be generated in open Japanese woods is more dangerous.

 

Hakuba by far is not firing on any level this season. You have to really know where to look and even then the stars seem to have to Aline. December and January weren't bad though. Hakuba is 3 to 4 years behind Niseko and maybe more with the economy slowing down and money drying up. Even so the improvements over the last 4 years have been quite good. The local community continues to grow with retirees and and people looking to live in a bit nicer place within Nagano.

 

If a run is considered within bounds and controlled I cant see why guests should need avi gear. Anything not controlled should be skied responsibly and with gear and respect for others you could effect. Japan is still lagging behind in Avalanche preparedness but they are moving forward. Next season will see the countries first level 2 course and I would think in the near future more guiding certification. YOu can get great reports from JAN japanese avalanche network or ACT avalanche control team. If you are heading into the BC in the Nagano Hakuba area they are vital. Niseko also is putting out regular reports as well and quite detailed. Niseko Nadare info are the search words.

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HS,

 

I was going to point out the same thing. Unfortunately, for those who speak no Japanese this program is not realistic :(

Anyway, there are inbounds legal tree runs although I saw a pretty scary slide on one of them last season (when we had proper snow!) so we have to be careful no matter how safe we think it is or how good we think we are...

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Yeah Stemik tree wells are almost non existent in Niseko and I can't imagine pose a big problem in Hakuba. Gates are only used in Niseko when you are entering areas that are not patrolled, otherwise nearly all treed areas are accessible. The system up here seems to work pretty well as there hasn't been one avie death since the inception of the Niseko Local Rules.

 

Sure people can die and get very injured hitting trees, a Japanese skier died in the Hanazono area just a few days ago from hitting a tree. Skiing does have risks. So does driving to a resort, in fact I'd reckon there's probably been more deaths on the roads with people driving to/from the resort than there has been skiing related ones.

 

Frankly as far as I'm concerned most Japanese companies running ski resorts just haven't got a clue, including the one running Niseko. They have changed very little to how they ran the resorts back in the 80's but of course the skier public has changed a lot including the increasingly popularity of the dark side of the ski industry, snowbaording razz . The increasing popularity of Japanese resorts with foreign tourists has caught most of the them by complete surprise. It was certainly through no marketing campaign of their own. And instead of hiring consultants from successful international ski resorts to advise on how best to cater to this foreign market they basically do nothing to change at all. Overall for the Japanese ski industry to thrive once more I believe we've got to get rid of the Japanese running them and get international resort managers buying them out. There's just so much potential going untapped.

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On the seafood front, Hakuba is as close to the sea than Niseko is to Otaru, where I presume theirs is sourced. I suspect the problem in Hakuba is that it is too Westernized. There isn't a good fishmongers in town because lots of the hotels and pensions aren't serving a lot of Japanese food. Its an open secret that a lot of crab in Hokkaido is bought from Russia. There is no reason why it couldn't be delivered elsewhere in Japan at a slight premium. The tuna is coming from all over too.

 

I wouldn't call ramen fresh natural food, but Hakuba is a bit lacking in that department too. None of them are very good.

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