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Not "possibly true", but true.

 

They are hardly the people to take credit for Nozawa becoming popular. (And I have actually heard some negative things about them locally).

 

Though I'm sure we don't want this thread to go off topic like that.

 

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As it happens, I will likely not return. That said, i do not begrudge the time spent there. We had a ball!

 

You soon learn (unless you're really thick!) to avoid the longer/harder pushes and keep the skis running well.

 

With the benefit of hindsight, I would have designed the lift system so that there was a downhill from EVERY offload to another lift, rather than an uphill walk to click in, then a short run to another lift to get to a third lift to get somewhere worth skiing (like gondola - skyline contact - Yamabiko).

 

As I said, I'll likely not return, looking at other places for 2010 (providing I can pay for this trip and save a bit between now and then). violin

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The negatives are really a point of view. If you come to Nozawa thinking it's a huge resort then you're in for a disappointment. The ski resort is big but the facilities aren't; it's literally just a tiny mountain village.

 

The main customer base is the serious/semi-pro from Japan's bubble period. The fundamental difference between Japanese and Western skiiers is technique and the emphasis on technical finesse. With that motivation, there's a lot of opportunity to improve. There's also the pedigree of the village; the saying goes: "If you want a proper (SAJ) examination, you go to Nozawa Onsen".

 

In regards to off piste, the ski patrol/operators will confiscate your ski passes (or so the signs say...) but on a tour yesterday, it was like "those over there are rabbit tracks... these are kamoshika tracks... and that's a snowboarder... who also seems to have crashed into the tree". More ski/board tracks than animal tracks when you go into the woods razz.

 

I like it but it's practically home to me so my opinion is quite biased ^_^;

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Originally Posted By: Ryoma
The negatives are really a point of view. If you come to Nozawa thinking it's a huge resort then you're in for a disappointment. The ski resort is big but the facilities aren't; it's literally just a tiny mountain village.


Not so tiny, compared with places like Thredbo or Falls Creek!

Originally Posted By: Ryoma
The fundamental difference between Japanese and Western skiiers is technique and the emphasis on technical finesse.


I wonder who you think has the "emphasis on technical finesse".

I noted a lot of skiiers going very fast down some fairly steep slopes. They did not seem to have wonderful technique, just plenty of speed. I doubt very much if they could have stopped if a beginner had muffed a turn somewhere ahead of them.

Originally Posted By: Ryoma
With that motivation, there's a lot of opportunity to improve. There's also the pedigree of the village; the saying goes: "If you want a proper (SAJ) examination, you go to Nozawa Onsen".


"That motivation" ?? sorry, that one passed me by. As for the examination, I do not quite understand what the point is. Are you suggesting that the examiners at Nozawa Onsen are more strict than elsewhere? or what?

For me (a relative newcomer to the sport and in the over 60 age group) there are a lot of steeps and a lot of quite flats and not a lot of 'in-between' at NO. After a night of fresh falls, I found that 'slopes' like Uenotaira required a lot of pushing to get from the gondola unload to the slopes that were a bit more challenging. As I understand it, Uenotaira translates as "the flat bit on top" and the description seems to fit well.
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I never said it was tiny, the runs etc are quite developed but the school, resort facilities etc aren't. The village itself is never going to be a large business establishment. The main reason for this is that most of the resort is run by the Nozawa Onsen Ski Club and it's a club, not a company.

 

In Japanese, you'll probably hear that the people are quite 'mame' about things or particular. The emphasis on technical finesse is basically the main point in Japan's ski culture. From magazines, dvds to lessons and 'gashokus', everything emphasises this over every other aspect of skiing. With regards to people being fast on slopes without being good, that's kind of my point. If you did something like that with your senpai watching, you'd probably not be in a favourable position. The whole mentality of being very particular about detail appeals greatly to the Japanese, it just makes sense that it becomes the biggest aspect of the sport. It's also the reason why freestyle skiing is usually looked down upon. There's no real way to describe it other than 'mame'. *shrug*

 

My point of the examination is just that: the Nozawa Ski School's examiners are one of the strictest in the SAJ. Throughout the season, you'll see people already with their level 1's (1ç´š) wanting to retake them for just for the sake of saying they got it here. Not one person has passed their Crown, Technical or Level 1 exams this season.

 

I'm presenting this from a Japanese POV.

 

P.S. I don't think Australia has Technical competitions and I'm not sure about Europe, but it's pretty much *the* main event in Japan's ski.

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Originally Posted By: JA
Still when you consider the size of the place, it wasn't overcrowded with Aussies.


When we went to Nozawa in 04/05, we booked the accomodation directly with the minshuku we stayed in, and when I tried to get transfers into the village at the time of booking our flights, no-one in Flight Centre had ever heard of the place. We felt like we were the only Australians skiing there, and now all the commercial snow travel package companies have Nozawa on their books. I hope it doesn't get too much attention, I really liked the feel of the village, and wasn't at all disappointed that there wasn't a huge Prince Resort complex in the village.
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Actually, what you said was that the village was "a tiny village". I take issue with the description, because it really depends on your experience of small towns. For instance, I lived for my formative years (around age 5 to 18) in a town with a single shop (which was also the Post Office and the local phone exchange), no local police or fire service, and around 15 houses. Now, that, I guess, is a "tiny village".

 

Technical competitions? From my experience (admittedly limited) very few people ski for competition - I'd guess around 1 percent at most, of the skiing public - most of us ski for the enjoyment of a pristine environment, the beauty of the location and the thrill of a good run in good, clean snow. Competition is simply not an issue.

 

As for the "main event" I would venture to suggets that the majority of Japanese skiiers I've seen over the last 4 trips are FAR less interested in "events" and much more interested in enjoying a ski.

 

My point about "fast" was that they were going "like the clappers", but far from "in control" - as I understand it, a part of the alpine code of conduct accepted around theorld.

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well,im really looking forward to nozawa and it will be interesting to see how I see it compared to alot of other places ive been to (not in japan).. but while were talking about nozawa..

is there a cheap way to get back from nozawa to tokyo ? like buying a special pass or so, there's two of us and my japan rail pass will run out the day we get there..so wanna see if there's a cheaper way than paying full price for the nagano-tokyo shinkansen razz

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Originally Posted By: JA
Actually, what you said was that the village was "a tiny village". I take issue with the description, because it really depends on your experience of small towns. For instance, I lived for my formative years (around age 5 to 18) in a town with a single shop (which was also the Post Office and the local phone exchange), no local police or fire service, and around 15 houses. Now, that, I guess, is a "tiny village".

Technical competitions? From my experience (admittedly limited) very few people ski for competition - I'd guess around 1 percent at most, of the skiing public - most of us ski for the enjoyment of a pristine environment, the beauty of the location and the thrill of a good run in good, clean snow. Competition is simply not an issue.

As for the "main event" I would venture to suggets that the majority of Japanese skiiers I've seen over the last 4 trips are FAR less interested in "events" and much more interested in enjoying a ski.

My point about "fast" was that they were going "like the clappers", but far from "in control" - as I understand it, a part of the alpine code of conduct accepted around theorld.


JA- apart from the tiny village i agree with what Ryoma has stated.

I have a wide experience of Nagano ski areas - espcially the more prestigious (Happo, Nozawa & Shiga Kogen) (also the 3 with a high % of skiers vs boarders)

I dont think she was trying to say that the majority of J-skiers ski in or watch competitions, but the basic ski school philosophy is train technically to become a better skier, a lot more than foreign ski schools were the emphasis is more of having fun.

Demonstration teams are very popular with the different ski schools much more so than other countries - this demo image is passed down to the customers attending these schools.
How many times have you seen a Japanese ski school having fun in the powder vs standing and watching the instructor talk for 10mins....probably very few times..

In saying all this, I still beleive the J- customer gets a sense of acheivement from attending the above ski school.

After attending the ski programs in Japan for numerous years - J- skiers reach very high standards of skiing -abliet on the piste. (thats why the powder is still there at 2pm)

So these skiers going like the "clappers" were probably in fact very competent skiers going fast for the thrill, enjoying the pristine enviroment and thinking that those technical lessons did pay off!(with probably the odd exception)
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Originally Posted By: stemik
So these skiers going like the "clappers" were probably in fact very competent skiers going fast for the thrill, enjoying the pristine enviroment and thinking that those technical lessons did pay off!(with probably the odd exception)


No doubt there are plenty of competent skiers "going fast for the thrill" but they do need to be aware of the rest of us and, as I mentioned, be able to 'give way' to skiers below them - part of the Alpine Responsibility code. If the speed thing is their bag, there are 2 courses at Nozawa that were closed except for competition (at least that is what the site said late last year). I believe it was opened up to the public this season except for specified competition days, and one would expect to have high speed skiers there.

I was surprised at the number of speed demons on the Challenge and Utopia courses.

I certainly do not want to suggest that I am an expert on Japanese skiing (or the psyche of the skiing public either there or elsewhere) but merely expressed surprise at the 'technical' comment.
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Originally Posted By: JA
Originally Posted By: stemik
So these skiers going like the "clappers" were probably in fact very competent skiers going fast for the thrill, enjoying the pristine enviroment and thinking that those technical lessons did pay off!(with probably the odd exception)


No doubt there are plenty of competent skiers "going fast for the thrill" but they do need to be aware of the rest of us and, as I mentioned, be able to 'give way' to skiers below them - part of the Alpine Responsibility code.


I agree totally- espcially with kids who ski across the mountain and more than not do not look up to see if anyone is skiing down. And snowboarders who have their back to the slope and again difficult to see anyone coming down.

Last year I got into a arguement with a competent skier on the slope, who just narrowly missed hitting one of my kids....I pleaded with him to slow down - or go like the "clappers" early morning before the crowds..
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Not only kids do the "use the full width of the run" thing. I ski reasonably well considering my age and relative inexperience, I ski with a bloke who's about 6 months older than I am, has been skiing 27 years or so (OK, mostly at one week a year) and can be picked from a crowd by his "tractor driver" stance and the fact that he invariably either goes straight down the fall-line OR wanders across the entire width of the run.

 

Either way, it is a relief to see him get ahead of me, at least that way I know where he is!

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I think Uenotaira, Paradise and Rinkan courses people generally give way (except for boarders, I find beginner boarders have a harder time avoiding people). When it gets to Utopia, Challenge, Yamabiko etc... it gets a bit harder. I think most people tend to go fairly quickly down those runs and there's a sense of superiority (i.e. if you can't keep up you shouldn't be on the run) that's been there since the resort started operating. I'm not going to comment on whether it's a good mentality or not, it's just the way it is and has always been (and Japan's not very fond of change).

 

Kandahar is usualy open to the public except for race days.

 

As Stemik said, when Australians/Europeans/Americans come to Nozawa, they expect to have off-piste guides. In all the advertisement, DVDs etc.. it's almost exclusively shot in back country and then when people get here, there's signs all over the place saying you'll have your passes confiscated. On the other hand, it's nice when I go out and I see more ski/board tracks than animal tracks ^_^

 

Edit: my comment on technical comps is that they don't really exist outside of Japan, while in this country, it's a bigger event than all other ski disciplines combined. The point I'm trying to make is: there is a bigger emphasis on Technical Skiing in Japan than in other countries. If you'd like to discuss this point, I don't think there's much need to be aggressive about it.

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Quote:
In all the advertisement, DVDs etc.. it's almost exclusively shot in back country and then when people get here, there's signs all over the place saying you'll have your passes confiscated.


Do the resort not realise that this might be a problem? Or at least that people might expect to be able to go there!
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The advertisement is for the Japanese customer base so it's not a problem. The signs are there for more a liability clause... on the other hand people rarely get hurt in back-country.

 

It's just a legal complication that people would rather just avoid to begin with so it's pretty hard finding a guide etc.

 

- Ski patrol don't want to deal with cases of things going badly

- School doesn't want the responsibility of it

 

It's relatively safe but rather than dealing with cases where things turn out for the worst, people would rather just ban it.

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Originally Posted By: Ryoma
Edit: my comment on technical comps is that they don't really exist outside of Japan, while in this country, it's a bigger event than all other ski disciplines combined. The point I'm trying to make is: there is a bigger emphasis on Technical Skiing in Japan than in other countries. If you'd like to discuss this point, I don't think there's much need to be aggressive about it.


Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware of being aggressive, If I gave that impression, I apologise.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "technical skiing". Does that imply that there is "non-technical"?

Again, I am sure that the majority of skiiers (no matter where in the world) are there for the pure enjoyment of the ride. Possible exceptions to that are the people who live/work in the resort areas and can afford to be choosey as to when/where they ski. Us mug punters who do a (for me to Japan 6 hour drive, 9 hour flight and then several hours train/bus) trip to get to the snow have no such luxury, we ski whenever we can and enjoy the simple pleasure of "being there" rather than trying to be a super hero on skis wink
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You might be surprised JA at how many people (here at least) are there to get that badge test and be technically right. I have a friend who drove himself to actually dislike skiing because he spent so much time striving towards that qualification and not enjoying it. Sounds silly, but true.

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JA: No problem, I can understand how posts can be misinterpretted. Japan's obsession with the technical aspect of skiing is a bit hard to explain without actually living here, I think. Most people in Japan get a sense of comfort or enjoyment out of having everything organised, doing things neatly and being able to improve their skiing technique gives a sense of achievement and that's fun. The degree of this comes down to the examinations, Level 1 is the highest normal level (with L10 being the lowest). Most Japanese people I know that ski do so to try and get their next levels (to the point where, if they fail, I see them come in multiple times in a year to retry). From my point of view, the skiiers are shooting themselves in the foot with this 'traditional' approach (I use the term traditional loosely, it was really just because a hundred years ago, only the rich aristocrats could ski in Japan and so there was that snob value which I think is still attached). The problem I see is that the veterans and the youth have a clash of ideals on the sport and it's resulting in the sport slowly dieing out in Japan. Younger people are more interested in having fun and when they join a ski circle/club, they tend to do a double take with how serious people take it (at Highschool and University). 5-10 years ago, it resulted in a boom of Snowboarders and even now, the majority of younger people do snowboarding over skiing. If they promoted Freestyle skiing in Japan, I think a lot of people would come back for the fun factor but it'd be looked down upon by a lot of the older skiiers.

 

With the Technical Competitions, it's basically about how well you ski or board, not how fast or anything. With your examinations, it's basically the same just that there are different cut off points for each level. You'll have a number of judges/examiners giving points on how well you turn and your style. In Japan, most people belong to a ski club and most ski clubs compete or have so in the past. Technical Competitions are pretty much the yard-stick here; everyone that does alpine, combination, jump, moguls etc will do Technical GS/Slalom first. As such, competition is a big must for people in ski clubs as it's the only real measure of progress. If you flip through the magazines, they're almost completely dedicated to guides showing how to improve your techniques (as opposed to the mags in Aust where you often get guides to resorts, freestyle shots etc).

 

Edit: Customers got in the way of finishing my post razz. RE: GG's post... yeah. So many people want to get their Level 1s (and eventually their Technical/Crown certs) but no one has passed this season. I had a friend break down over it (she's tried three times so far). Like, there's no real point to the exam other than saying "yeah, I got my level 1s!" as most people don't want to take it to a professional level. It seems like a whole lot of stress for nothing... (and then on the other hand, when asked "why?" I'd reply with "'cause it was there" :p)

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Ryoma,

 

Thank you so much for that comprehensive explanation (at least it seemed so to me!wink) of the Japanese psyche.

 

From that, I can see the problem with boarding in Japan. The 'traditionalists' would see boarders as "the opposition". Pretty much the same as skiers in the rest of the world do!

 

That would explain the number of resorts/grounds that have either a ban on boarders or have only recently relaxed it. That would also explain the number of "no boarders" signs remaining on the lift stanchions at Yamabiko. They have relaxed the policy but not got around to removing the signs. - As an aside, the existence of the signs would seem to be counterproductive. The policy having changed, the signs have no meaning. So ... which signs do you believe??

 

I have the same problem with road signs that show a 40kph limit for "roadworks" but are left there way after the works are complete. Makes for a mental attitude of "the signs do not mean anything" - do you get what I am saying?

 

If you have any influence at Nozawa, it would be worth mentioning that the signs posted should actually MEAN what they say, else people (especially Aussies, but gaijin in general) will ignore ALL signs, on the basis that some are irrelevant so all might be.

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Oh, customers?? PITA aren't they? Life would be sooo much easier if they didn't appear at the most inconvenient time. wink

 

Where do you work?? (If SJ rules don't permit you to say, pm me)

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