gareth_oau 2 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 fortunately, helmets are a bit more fashionable now - makes it easier to sell the idea. I remember when bike helmets were first released (the old stackhats) - only the dorkiest nerds on the planet would consider wearing one - made you look like Kryten from Red Dwarf Link to post Share on other sites
torihada 2 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I am amazed at the number of kids in Japan skiing helmetless, even in the ski schools. I had a couple of tumbles last week and was glad to be wearing a helmet, especially after checking my speed; had my garmin GPS on me and I clocked 56 mph on one run. I didn't think I was going that fast and after that decided to wind it down a bit. Imagine cracking your beanie clad head on a groomed piste at that speed. Link to post Share on other sites
Fang 0 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: torihada I had a couple of tumbles last week and was glad to be wearing a helmet, especially after checking my speed; had my garmin GPS on me and I clocked 56 mph on one run. I didn't think I was going that fast and after that decided to wind it down a bit. Imagine cracking your beanie clad head on a groomed piste at that speed. Imagine increasing the mass and angular momentum of your head such that what would have been a nasty crack on the head turned into a fatal brain stem injury. As I've said before, I'm not saying that snow lids are a good or bad idea just that the question should be examined thoroughly before espousing their miraculous life saving properties. Link to post Share on other sites
torihada 2 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Fang Originally Posted By: torihada I had a couple of tumbles last week and was glad to be wearing a helmet, especially after checking my speed; had my garmin GPS on me and I clocked 56 mph on one run. I didn't think I was going that fast and after that decided to wind it down a bit. Imagine cracking your beanie clad head on a groomed piste at that speed. Imagine increasing the mass and angular momentum of your head such that what would have been a nasty crack on the head turned into a fatal brain stem injury. As I've said before, I'm not saying that snow lids are a good or bad idea just that the question should be examined thoroughly before espousing their miraculous life saving properties. If you don't want to wear a helmet, fine. I've got no problems with people not wearing them (though kids should be mandatory). But any suggestions that a helmet could make your injury worse in a crash is just spurious to say the least. In a car crash you may get whiplash because your body is restrained but your head whips forward, causing neck injury; this is not an argument for removal of seat belts. As I've mentioned before I have had numerous severe head impacts (mtb crashes) and the last time my helmet saved me from a fractured skull at least, and then I only hit the ground at 28mph. On a a groomed piste I think you'll find your travelling a good deal faster. My snowhelmet is a lot more substantial than my bike lid, so I feel I can safely say that helmets do have miraculous life saving properties; that's their whole Raison d'être. Anyway, I wear a helmet, keeps my head warm, I can strap my headcam to my bonce and I don't care what it looks like, at least its not a comedy ski hat.....now there's something we can agree on banning. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Im with you Torihada. Fang you clearly have a problem with helmets. I totally respect the choice of adult persons who decide that helmets are not for them .... but to try and make out they are actually MORE dangerous than not wearing one....uuummmm....sounds like you are looking for justification for not wearing one. My teenagers were really ANTI helmet when we began snow sports and kicked up big time but even my image concious grommets are fully supportive now. To the extend that Papa has been boarding without a helmet this trip as his got lost and he has had trouble finding one big enough for his rather large head. They nag him regularly on and off piste to get a helmet so they can stop worrying every time he stacks it. If you dont wanna wear one, no probs....but I wouldnt want to be responsible for talking someone out of getting a helmet with twisted data and then discover they got badly hurt in a situation where a helmet might have offered them some protection. Sure they are not the panacea to the worlds ills, but they DO undoubtedly offer some extra protection. Take the users word for it! Link to post Share on other sites
Fang 0 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: torihada If you don't want to wear a helmet, fine. I do wear one. Originally Posted By: torihada I've got no problems with people not wearing them (though kids should be mandatory). Why? Any evidence that helmets reduce major head injuries or fatalities for kids? There is some evidence that as far as bikes are concerned that they actually increase the incidence of the above due to increased risk taking behaviour. (As I said I haven't seen any info about snow helmets). Shouldn't this kind of decision be left up to the parents? Originally Posted By: torihada But any suggestions that a helmet could make your injury worse in a crash is just spurious to say the least. Any science to back that up? As there is for increased injuries in bike helmet wearers. Originally Posted By: torihada In a car crash you may get whiplash because your body is restrained but your head whips forward, causing neck injury; this is not an argument for removal of seat belts. Flawed analogy, nobody has said that seat belts increase risk taking behaviour or that the injuries they cause might be worse than those they protect against. Originally Posted By: torihada As I've mentioned before I have had numerous severe head impacts (mtb crashes) and the last time my helmet saved me from a fractured skull at least, How do you know? Did you go back and try it without the helmet and then compare results? I'm not saying that it didn't save you from serious harm just that you can't know that for sure. And situations like your's and the one I'll describe below are not evidence they are anecdotes and shouldn't be used to espouse or deny the efficacy of helmets. I have also had several head impacts on a bike, last year a guy in a small truck doored me while I was doing about 25km/h, it was a sizeable impact buckling the door a good 3 inches. First point of contact with the edge of the door was my head just above the right temple. I ended up with a small lump and cut on the head, a sizeable cut on the ear and a long thin bruise down the side of my neck and chest; a bike helmet would have stopped the small head injury done nothing for the rest and may have caught in the car door twisting and breaking my neck, of course it probably wouldn't have. Originally Posted By: torihada On a a groomed piste I think you'll find your travelling a good deal faster. My snow helmet is a lot more substantial than my bike lid, Totally agree I wear one and I think for the way I ride it makes sense, however I've seen no science that would support their legal compulsion, especially for kids given the super hero feelings that wearing one might evoke in a typical child. Originally Posted By: torihada I don't care what it looks like, at least its not a comedy ski hat.....now there's something we can agree on banning. Now that is beyond doubt. I think modern snow helmets look pretty cool and are warm and comfortable. By the way what kind of helmet do you wear on the MTB? I hope it's not one of those ludicrous styrofoam jobbies that the road bikers wear. (never done or watched any serious MTBing) And what type of helmet do you wear on the snow? I'm looking to buy a new one soon. Link to post Share on other sites
gareth_oau 2 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 saw a guy riding a pushie yesterday, he has an 80's style bike helmet on which looked bad enough - but the fact that he had it on backwards took the cake!! Link to post Share on other sites
Fang 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Mamabear Im with you Torihada. Fang you clearly have a problem with helmets. I totally respect the choice of adult persons who decide that helmets are not for them .... but to try and make out they are actually MORE dangerous than not wearing one....uuummmm....sounds like you are looking for justification for not wearing one. My teenagers were really ANTI helmet when we began snow sports and kicked up big time but even my image concious grommets are fully supportive now. To the extend that Papa has been boarding without a helmet this trip as his got lost and he has had trouble finding one big enough for his rather large head. They nag him regularly on and off piste to get a helmet so they can stop worrying every time he stacks it. If you dont wanna wear one, no probs....but I wouldnt want to be responsible for talking someone out of getting a helmet with twisted data and then discover they got badly hurt in a situation where a helmet might have offered them some protection. Sure they are not the panacea to the worlds ills, but they DO undoubtedly offer some extra protection. Take the users word for it! I am not pro or anti helmets I wear one on the snow for various reasons. I am however anti people spouting off about them claiming knowledge that is not in evidence, and remember the plural of anecdote is not data. Your statement above is just emotive tosh, how would you feel about talking someone into making their kids wear helmets only to find out later that it increased their risk taking behaviour ultimately causing a fatal crash. (equally crap argument to yours above, or should I say lack of arguement) Link to post Share on other sites
Youdy 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I wouldn't bother arguing fang their helmets are blocking their ability to think rationally! but you did just give me a great idea for my case study for uni(psych/law majors) Does wearing a helmet lessen the amount of perceived risk? increasing your chance of participating in dangerous behavior and in turn injury I know the recent studies done by the Canadian ski assoc showed that a greater number of helmet wearers vs non helmet wearers died in skiing/snowboarding related incidents but they didn't mention what type of accidents nor where abouts i.e backcountry/park etc and other important variables Link to post Share on other sites
Fang 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Youdy I wouldn't bother arguing fang their helmets are blocking their ability to think rationally! but you did just give me a great idea for my case study for uni(psych/law majors) Sounds interesting and challenging. Originally Posted By: Youdy Does wearing a helmet lessen the amount of perceived risk? increasing your chance of participating in dangerous behavior and in turn injury Be tough to answer, I would guess that the vast majority of people who participate in extreme or dangerous snow sports wear helmets and in Japan at least the majority on piste do not so a simple comparison of helmet/non-helmet fatalities would tell you little of value. Originally Posted By: Youdy I know the recent studies done by the Canadian ski assoc showed that a greater number of helmet wearers vs non helmet wearers died in skiing/snowboarding related incidents but they didn't mention what type of accidents nor where abouts i.e backcountry/park etc and other important variables And what were the causes of death, what was the helmet/non-helmet rate of people participating in each type of activity, what was the accident rate for each group what was the fatal vs non-fatal accident rate for each group etc. Very tough to gather that kind of data. if helmets do in fact increase risk taking is it concious/unconcious behaviour. Good luck with your studies. Link to post Share on other sites
torihada 2 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: torihada As I've mentioned before I have had numerous severe head impacts (mtb crashes) and the last time my helmet saved me from a fractured skull at least, Originally Posted By: Fang How do you know? Did you go back and try it without the helmet and then compare results? The helmet (Giro Parachute with chin gaurd) was split from front to back; inch wide split. I had severe bruising around my temples and bridge of nose as well as jaw. (I admit the helmet wouldn't have stopped my shoulder from seperating, but I can (and do) live with that). Me thinks the helmet absorbing that impact may have stopped my head splitting in two. What do you think? I had a friend who had brain damage from a low speed impact with a car, landing head first. I'm sure his family wished he'd been wearing a helmet. Originally Posted By: Fang By the way what kind of helmet do you wear on the MTB? I hope it's not one of those ludicrous styrofoam jobbies that the road bikers wear. (never done or watched any serious MTBing) My helmet is a compromise between a light XC helmet and a full face protection, having a chin guard. It'll save my teeth in a sub 30 mph impact. For faster rocky descents I'll be getting a full face helmet. Originally Posted By: Fang And what type of helmet do you wear on the snow? I'm looking to buy a new one soon. Its a Protec, can't remember the model name.You can see it here: Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Any study would need very careful analysis. It is true that statistics can be interpreted to uphold many an argument, and establishing causality would require some very very strict selection criteria. I would be inclined to think that people who engage in high risk sports might be more likely to wear a helmet than those who do not engage in those sports. I would also think that people making a progression to the park from the piste would be more likely to helmet up and also more likely to get injured as thier level of risk taking behaviour has increased. I dont think I began in this thread full of emotive tosh, and would not really consider myself someone who can not see multiple perspectives in a reasonable discussion, but methinks you might be playing devils advocate here Fang, especially as you wear a helmet yourself. Youdy if you manage to suceed in the proposed research I would be keen to see the results. It would be most effective if you were able to include those knocks and injuries that are not reported to medical practitioners though ....would be hard to do, but the results if the research was done carefully enough would make the helmet debate much more informed on all sides. Link to post Share on other sites
Fang 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: torihada I had a friend who had brain damage from a low speed impact with a car, landing head first. I'm sure his family wished he'd been wearing a helmet. That's tragic and I wouldn't presume to question your feelings or especially those of your friends family however I don't think it is relevant to the discussion. Originally Posted By: torihada Its a Protec, can't remember the model name.You can see it here: I'm tossing up between a Protec and Giro, the shop near my place doesn't have either in my size so haven't been able to try them on, have to get to Ochanomizu soon. How would you rate the Protec generally? Link to post Share on other sites
Fang 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Mamabear I dont think I began in this thread full of emotive tosh, I don't think you did either it was just the one comment that got my goat. Originally Posted By: Mamabear methinks you might be playing devils advocate here Fang, To a degree, I certainly think wearing a helmet makes sense for me but I don't think the issue is as cut and dried as helmet advocates make out. When the bicycle helmet laws came in in Oz I know lots of people who simply gave up cycling, if that was a general trend then as a people we may have paid a greater cost in loss of health benefits than we gained in any injury prevention, which itself may have been non-existent or negative. Link to post Share on other sites
torihada 2 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Fang I'm tossing up between a Protec and Giro, the shop near my place doesn't have either in my size so haven't been able to try them on, have to get to Ochanomizu soon. How would you rate the Protec generally? My head is still in one piece after numerous crunches. It has adjustable vents which is good and ear pieces that are removeable. Link to post Share on other sites
gareth_oau 2 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Fang When the bicycle helmet laws came in in Oz I know lots of people who simply gave up cycling, hi fang, i suspect that those who "simply gave up" were probably protesting about the state of nanyism, rathaer than challenging that helmets do or don't work. I always wear a helmet when i ride offroad, as i feel there is a perceived benefit, because i am taking risks. Onroad, i'm not so bothered as the risk of an accident for me is lower. There will always be debate over whether or not they work, and there will always be evidence that some people are worse off because they were wearing one at the time. I'm still not decided whether or not to wear one on the snow (I dont go fast enough yet!! LOL), but at least the look decent enough now, so "image" is no longer part of the debate Link to post Share on other sites
keba 0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hagel BE et al. Effectiveness of helmets in skiers and snowboarders: case-control and case crossover study. BMJ. 2005 Feb 12;330(7487):345. Macnab AJ et al. Effect of helmet wear on the incidence of head/face and cervical spine injuries in young skiers and snowboarders. Inj Prev. 2002 Dec;8(4):324-7. Sulheim S et al. Helmet use and risk of head injuries in alpine skiers and snowboarders. JAMA. 295(8):919-24, 2006 Feb 22 These 3 studies, published in peer-reviewed medical journals, all showed a significant reduction (29-60%, depending on study, and definitions) in head injuries by helmet wear in snowboarding and skiing, without any increase noted in neck injuries. No study has, or can, show a reduction in fatalities, as the incidence is extremely low, and most fatalities are not primarily due to head injuries. Sorry for introducing researched evidence to what has been a thoroughly enjoyable debate. For my part, even though the risk of serious injury or death while skiing is very low, and mandatory helmet use is unwarranted, I will keep wearing one. Link to post Share on other sites
HighlyTrainedNovaTeacher 2 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 My helmet makes me ears all warm and toasty. Good enough reason for me. Link to post Share on other sites
Fang 0 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Originally Posted By: torihada Originally Posted By: Fang I'm tossing up between a Protec and Giro, the shop near my place doesn't have either in my size so haven't been able to try them on, have to get to Ochanomizu soon. How would you rate the Protec generally? My head is still in one piece after numerous crunches. It has adjustable vents which is good and ear pieces that are removeable. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
mixedbag 0 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I have a Giro. Can't remember the model. Feels good, not cold, some protection better than no protection I reckon. I'll stick with it. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 From the Telegraph Quote: The actress Natasha Richardson was fighting for her life on Tuesday night after sustaining a serious head injury during a skiing lesson. Miss Richardson, part of the Redgrave acting dynasty, fell on a beginners' slope in Canada on Monday afternoon. The actress, who was not wearing a helmet, initially appeared to be unhurt, but an hour after the fall she was taken to a local hospital after complaining of feeling unwell. She was later transferred to intensive care at a hospital 75 miles away in Montreal. Miss Richardson's agents in London and Los Angeles said they were making no comment, but doctors familiar with head injuries said her symptoms were consistent with a blood clot in or around the brain, caused by ruptured neck injuries that typically follow head injuries Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 ah sadly, she has died. Sad loss. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Indeed - that has really really made think about buying a helmet - she was only a beginner and on a beginner slope too! Link to post Share on other sites
shadowtec 0 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I am in the wear a helmet camp but I have to question how one would protect the neck area ? It is very sad. One trick that beginners should learn (well boarders at least) is 'how to fall' and what to do when you feel things are about to go pear-shape. I was taught this in rock climbing and so far no broken bones. I saw some yahoo on TV saying that helmets restrict your view and your hearing is impaired (dosen't matter to me my hearing is not the greatest and odds are I am unable to hear any impending doom) Link to post Share on other sites
BagOfCrisps 24 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 And she was on a green beginner run. Link to post Share on other sites
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