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Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll
two distinct groups of people


That's an oversimplification. For my own part, I've never booked a package deal with an agent/tour company and never plan to. I book my own accomodation direct with the lodge owner, when possible, and hire a car or use public transportation. I try to look for resorts, and accomodation within those resorts, which is in keeping with the local custom, and I don't like to hang out with other travelling Aussies (my own travel companions excluded) after dark, if I go out at all. I have skied in other resorts in Japan, this season giving Furano a shot, not sure yet for next time around. I reserve the right to bitch about the hordes of unimaginative Aussies doing it the easy way, and also about the greedy developers who are quick to see an easy buck in exploiting them.
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Out of interest just because it is Friday and I'm bored - what evidence do you have of greedy developers in Niseko exploiting unimaginative Aussies?

 

 

. I try to look for resorts, and accomodation within those resorts, which is in keeping with the local custom

 

What exactly does this mean? Given that skiing isn't a Japanese custom I assume you're referring to the Japanese version of ski resorts with all the attendant issues with average food, smoking in restaurants, evening meals served between 5-6pm, beer vending machines etc. Or do you mean pensions or minshukus with shared facilities and little or no heating and Oba-sans tut-tuting when you ask for a second beer at dinner...

 

Oh those greedy developers! Knocking down this junk and building something that looks like it belongs in the 21st cent.

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Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll
Out of interest just because it is Friday and I'm bored - what evidence do you have of greedy developers in Niseko exploiting unimaginative Aussies?


The ads in Aussie ski mags looking for buyers for their properties is the only evidence I have of that from my end.

Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll
Oh those greedy developers! Knocking down this junk and building something that looks like it belongs in the 21st cent.


If we are going to have a discussion about architectural trends or building standards in the resorts then we'll go way off-thread. But aren't they just leaving the old junk, and building new stuff around it? And who's to say the 21st century stuff looks any better, that's a matter of taste.

I would much rather stay in a Minshuku in Nozawa Onsen, than an apartment in the new developments in the Hanazono area of Niseko. That's just my preference, and can't be argued. When travelling with children, though, as I usually have to do, the former is obviously more convenient, and that is why Niseko has become so popular in Australia. It's marketed as the family destination.
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Keba, it is all subective but jeez there isn't much to be said for the asthetics of regional japanese construction. As questionable as some of the new block houses the HT are putting up, they are way better.

 

The family angle for Niseko is a recent innovation. In 2005 there wasn't anything around - My wife and I had to make private child minding arrangements with an Aussie nurse who was living up there and had some spare time. I reckon niseko has been marketed on the strength of its claim to great snow and terrain policies and only recently on the fact that it now provides the kind of run of the mill services one would hope to find, having flown from in from a different hemisphere.

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...and I still don't see anyone where anyone has been ripped off... Other than perhaps in the fact that rather than being accomodated in the much cheap pensions and minshukus people are paying top dollar to stay in the western style places and hotels.

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wow i ought to brush all the powder snow off, it's been a while since i posted, i almost got buried beneath the new forum posts. meanwhile super baka rose to among the top-viewed videos.yay smile so you all know how i feel about niseko

 

I worked at NAC last year and one of my friends/coworkers was a skier from Colorado (also in the video, the lone skier). Whenever we would talk about development and Niseko he laughed and said 'Well this might be getting developed, but it's still nothing compared with Aspen.' We can moan and complain and compare and contrast and maybe even analyze, but we can't stand in the way of progress. In Niseko the Guides all realized this untenable situation and started the Niseko Winter Guide Mafia--er, Association last year. They represent an effort by the employed locals to manage themselves as an economic group stuck between the mountain owners & operators, the lodging units, and the tourists.

 

The mountain is overcrowded that is for sure, though it depends on the date. Towards mid-march it is completely tracked out by mid-morning on all but the most difficult to find runs, or the nice secret stashes which we all have plenty of, especially those of us with a season on the mountain in our rekishi. Even in early and mid-season, if you head to the peak on a blustery day your courage (stupidity?) will make you one of the few riders with access to knee-deep fresh powder. It's great fun, when you can see, and harrowing yet exciting when you can't (which is most of the time). One of my best memories is being first to ride nishi-sha after a huge dump, then getting blizzarded on when i tried to get up Iwao and hiking back to Moiwa in chest-deep (really) powder listening to This American Life podcasts. It was like walking through a cloud.

 

Nearby areas like yoteizan, iwaonupuri and chisenupuri are often great places to hit up if you don't mind hiking. Iwao has some radical terrain (look for it yerselves suckas) in one or two places, besides which the chutes are generally more interesting/more open to ride than on Annupuri. Moiwa has some great areas too, when the wind doesn't shut it down (like last season's crazy multi-day wind storms that left us with a barren moon to bump around on).

 

Silly thing about Niseko is if you actually go to niseko-cho (the mountain is in kutchan so they get the tax money -- but also they pay for road repairs and buses...for anyone who has lived in the town proper you know it's similar to any poor rural area in 'western' countries: tired looking mothers with dyed hair, skaters, small diner/restaurant owners, bars, etc.), just about 30 mins drive from annupuri and closer to iwaonupuri/chisenupuri access roads than the main village, real estate prices drop ridiculously low. The towns around chisenupuri ski resort also have really inexpensive, but a little more inconvenient (unless you're going to hike annupuri in the morning and take a bus to kutchan then hike back with groceries in the evening ;p) land/housing for sale.

 

Ironically, the influx of tourists is crowding the back country -- on Annupuri with tourists, but on Iwao and Chise with locals who themselves were probably fed up with the crowding of Annupuri. Yotei is still pretty empty, likely because of the 4 hour hike up wink But it has some sweet spots and sweet powder...and it is scary as all hell to ride down from the peak when your luck goes sour and its an icy day. Yotei hiking is also beautiful in general, and I've only been blessed with the chance to lead snowshoe tours -- and thereby really get to know -- one side of it in a whole season. If I were looking for housing I'd probably look out in Makkari, closer to Rusutsu and Yotei. Lonelier, sure, but just about as far from iwao/chise etc. as the Hirafu village, cheaper land, and equidistant to the two main resorts and the tallest mountain in the region (yotei) and the steepest terrain available locally (or so people say, i haven't had a chance to ride shiribetsudake). I don't drive so I'm not sure how the highway access is; it might be frustrating trying to plan trips to asahidake, sapporo ski resorts, or rishiribetsu.

 

I was only a Niseko local for one season, but I like to think that hiking Yotei 3 times, iwao a handful, chise the same, and spending almost every day on the mountain has gotten me a little more acquainted with the physical terrain. Working as an instructor/guide assistant and translator introduced me to the flows of money and human bodies that translate into the area's economy. I don't ride gentem so maybe I haven't drank the kool-aid, but that's my somewhat independent two-cents and a buck fifty on Niseko. In closing I'd like to say to the Ozy's, watch out for all the wealthy Europeans--they're looking to buy up property in the village. To all the Europeans, I'd like to say watch out for the Ozy's--they're looking to buy up all the beer in the prefecture. Americans are still a novelty, and Japanese riding cliques are still somewhat exclusive to foreigners. Now stop laughing and start riding. ~

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Originally Posted By: nuejam
In Niseko the Guides all realized this untenable situation and started the Niseko Winter Guide Mafia--er, Association last year. They represent an effort by the employed locals to manage themselves as an economic group stuck between the mountain owners & operators, the lodging units, and the tourists.


Do any of the members of the Niseko Winter Guide Association have formal guiding certification e.g. Canadian Mountain and Ski Guide (CMSG); International Federation of Mountain Guide Associations (IMFGA)?
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Originally Posted By: MikePow

Do any of the members of the Niseko Winter Guide Association have formal guiding certification e.g. Canadian Mountain and Ski Guide (CMSG); International Federation of Mountain Guide Associations (IMFGA)?

They have something much more important: a virtual stranglehold over the customer base because everyone does prepackaged stuff now. Soon enough it'll be a cartel with initiation writes, such as taking annoying customers for 'long lessons' off of 'short lifts'.
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Originally Posted By: nuejam
Originally Posted By: MikePow

Do any of the members of the Niseko Winter Guide Association have formal guiding certification e.g. Canadian Mountain and Ski Guide (CMSG); International Federation of Mountain Guide Associations (IMFGA)?

They have something much more important: a virtual stranglehold over the customer base because everyone does prepackaged stuff now. Soon enough it'll be a cartel with initiation writes, such as taking annoying customers for 'long lessons' off of 'short lifts'.


So can I deduce from your reply that the answer is NO?
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nuejam,

Don't take any notice of Rag-Doll. Any input from someone who knows what they are on about is far better than uninformed ramblings. (I include my own in that, as I have been to Niseko but twice, for 11 days each time, so my comments are limited to what I have seen there in that time.) That said, I must say that there were plenty of locals there during the holiday times (New Year was particularly busy) and the on-mountain restaurants were quite busy with locals at lunchtime. At other times, there was enough room that it wasn't obviously overcrowded with either locals or imports.

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That is a big assumption there Thursday, but thanks for the vote of confidence anyway! I was actually trying to make a joke without having to flag it with a winking man. Nuejam's post was great and makes a nice change from the high volume of travel advisory type posts we seem to be getting lately.

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Originally Posted By: MikePow
In Niseko the Guides all realized this untenable situation and started the Niseko Winter Guide Mafia--er, Association last year. They represent an effort by the employed locals to manage themselves as an economic group stuck between the mountain owners & operators, the lodging units, and the tourists.


I can see where they're coming from. A close Japanese friend works as a guide in another industry and works only for Japanese companies in the UK. The Japanese guides get treated pretty poorly and their pay (among other things)is way below the comparative UK guides working for UK companies. So I think guide's associations are pretty good if it gives them some clout when negotiating with companies, otherwise they'll be expected to work for free, with no holiday, for 40 years, for the good of the company.
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Originally Posted By: torihada
can see where they're coming from. A close Japanese friend works as a guide in another industry and works only for Japanese companies in the UK. The Japanese guides get treated pretty poorly and their pay (among other things)is way below the comparative UK guides working for UK companies. So I think guide's associations are pretty good if it gives them some clout when negotiating with companies, otherwise they'll be expected to work for free, with no holiday, for 40 years, for the good of the company.

Oh I wish, that would be really nice for them. Unfortunately for the individual guides, as it stood last year companies sent guide representatives to the NWGA meetings -- membership was on a company basis, only on an individual level for self-employed guides. The general theme of the meeting I got was that the association was intended to focus more as a pressure group on the companies operating the mountain than on employers for fair standards and pay. Talking with the same coworker that clued me in to Colorado's crazy-developed status though put me at ease: guides in the US have some pretty poor conditions too, at least river guides it sounded like.
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Originally Posted By: torihada
Originally Posted By: MikePow
In Niseko the Guides all realized this untenable situation and started the Niseko Winter Guide Mafia--er, Association last year. They represent an effort by the employed locals to manage themselves as an economic group stuck between the mountain owners & operators, the lodging units, and the tourists.


.... they'll be expected to work for free, with no holiday, for 40 years, for the good of the company.


You have just summed up the whole Job Ethic of Japan.....Japanese do this in EVERY job they do. (ok they do get paid)
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Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll
The family angle for Niseko is a recent innovation. In 2005 there wasn't anything around


In 2005 I was single and had no children, and I went to Niseko because that's where my friends were going, and we stayed in a pension run by a very nice Japanese couple. Prior to that, we had spent two weeks in Nozawa Onsen, and it just seemed very different.

It is probably obvious by now that I just have a chip on my shoulder about development in tourist areas everywhere, not just Niseko. Take a nice place to visit, and then develop the hell out of it until it becomes an unrecognisable parody of what it was before. How about the idea of cultural eco-tourism? Try and enjoy what's there and leave it just as it is. I do concede that ski resorts aren't a Japanese cutural relic, but a place like Nozawa seems to coexist with the ski resort without having lost its onsen village atmosphere.
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Thing is keba you are looking for something that doesn't really exist in Hokkaido. Remember Hokkaido has only been settled by the Japanese around as long as whities have been in Aus. Like Aus it has very limited cultural history, at least compared to Honshu. Much of the development here was influenced by the west as seen by the logical grid layout of Sapporo streets, very different to the maze that is Tokyo or other old cities in Japan. As far as I'm concerned Niseko never had anything that made it all that special and the recent development has not really detracted from it. There never was anything here that would have come under your 'cultural eco-tourism' desires before all the recent development.

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