Yuki's Passion 1 Posted June 26, 2008 Author Share Posted June 26, 2008 >Maybe..depends on what the ticket says and what the consumer protection legislation says but absent a clear confirmation on the ticket (fairly unlikely) and decent legislation (in Japan, I wouldn't hold my breath) the answer in common law countries is, yes they can. Yup, it sucks RD... I am getting the fax/email today with how much more I have to pay. Oh, its Northwest Airlines who are raising fees. Anybody else (americans) flying with them? Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Credit card companies seem to be free to jack up the cost of borrowing to way over their advertised rates long after folk have borrowed from them. We always pay ours off pronto, so I can't say anything from experience though. The next time I get a flight, I was thinking of going for the "pay up front and get the ticket in hand to stop increases" approach, so good luck to you all and let us know how you get on. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Ok guys - I can't say for Japan - or Northwest Airlines - no idea...BUT one of my jobs at the minute is interpreting for a Diploma of Tourism course. In that course one of the units was 'ticketing'. From what was taught at TAFE to prospective tourism/travel industry workers....: **If you have booked your flight, but have not finalised the payment and been ticketed then price rises will effect you. **Usually with petrol rises and across the board increases they will make a dealine that is 24 - 48 hrs from giving notice - how quickly your travel agent contacts you will dictate how long you have to get the money together and in. If you pay before the deadline and your tickets are issued then further price rises will not effect you. **If you have your tickets: e-tix, paper tickets...whatever. The price rises should not effect you. I am sure that in case of extreme problems - skyrocketing fuel prices, the inability of the airline to carry the passengers without going under - they could do something ridiculous like ask you to pay extra or have a full refund. But I would expect that would be VERY unlikley in Australia at least. What generally happens is they increase the prices on the remaining seats - sometimes to more than they need per seat to cover the earlier pre-sold cheaper fares. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 I think we should have more discussions on legal issues - they're fun, aren't they boys and girls? Tickets are a funny thing in law. One of their problems is that they often contain the terms of the contract the parties have entered into but the buyer sometimes doesn't get them until after it is too late to back out of the agreement. The courts over the years have really struggled with how they should be dealt with. Here is an example of some of the hoops judges will jump through to reach the "right" conclusion. MacRobertson Miller Airline Services v Commissioner of State Taxation - airline ticket (1975) 133 CLR 125 WA The case arose to see if the airline ticket was a concluded agreement which would be subject to stamp duty. The court said that there are many common situations where the standard analysis in terms of offer and acceptance breaks down. Here the court had to look at the purchase of an airline ticket in terms of offer and acceptance. The 3 High Court judges (Barwick, Stevens, Jacobs) each expressed a different view of the matter. Because obligations were excluded until the person turned up at the aircraft, some judges took the view that issuing a ticket amounted to issuing an offer, but was not itself the completion of a contract. A similar diversity can be found in contracts of carriage: Denton (1856) the offer is constituted by the announcement in a timetable - and accepted by the purchase of a ticket Wilkie (1974) - the provision of buses constitutes an offer which is accepted by getting on the bus. The Eagle (1977) A passenger making a booking makes an offer. MacRobertson - the ticket is itself an offer. Here is another one where the judge reckoned Ocean cruise tickets are legally different from airline tickets. OCEANIC SUN LINE SPECIAL SHIPPING COMPANY v FA Y New South Wales Court of Appeal 31 March 1987. The Court of Appeal has upheld the judgment' of Yeldham J who held that the plaintiff was entitled to bring proceedings in Sydney seeking damages against the defendant cruise company, incorporated in Greece, for serious injuries incurred in a trap shooting accident while travelling as a passenger on board the defendant's vessel. The majority judgment was given by McHugh J, with whom Glass J agreed. The shipowner contended that the plaintiff, through the contractual terms contained in the ticket, had agreed to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Greek courts. However the booking had been made by the plaintiffs mother-in-law, the proprietor of a travel agency in Sydney, as part of a group booking. The cruise brochure had contained a statement that the transportion was governed by terms and conditions printed on the passenger ticket which could be inspected at any of the owner's offices. No passenger ticket was available in Australia for inspection. After payment of the final balance of the cruise price, the travel agency issued an exchange order to the group leader which entitled the passenger to obtain a ticket from the owner "when boarding the vessel". The ticket was issued to the tour leader in Athens, and never given to the plaintiff. McHugh J considered that the booking and the deposit constituted an offer to the shipowner on the terms and conditions of the brochure, and the reservation became firm on payment of the deposit. Furthermore, he considered that, by reason of the brochure, the terms and conditions printed on the passenger ticket were incorporated into the contract. He rejected the shipowner's argument that no contract existed before the plaintiff boarded the ship. He distinguished the decision of the High Court in MacRobertson Miller Airline Services v The Commissioner of State Taxation (WA)? (concerning whether the issue of an aircraft ticket constituted a contract for the purposes of stamp duty legislation) on the basis that domestic or international flights were different to travel by sea. He rejected Yeldham J's finding that the brochure did not become part of the contract. As the Court of Appeal pointed out, since the law of New South Wales gave the plaintiff the right to challenge the imposition of the conditions pursuant to the 1 Reported in E Q E Rev Vol I NO 2. 2 (1975) 133 CLR 125. Oceanic Sun Line SSC 6 1 Contracts Review Act 1980 (NSW), the plaintiffs case was even stronger than Yeldham J had thought. Because the Contracts Review Act gives the New South Wales Court the power to strike down any provision of a contract that is unjust, the Court of Appeal thought it became almost inevitable that the action must be heard in New South Wales. In considering the shipowner's application to stay the action based on the doctrine of forum non conveniens, the majority of the Court of Appeal considered that in order to justify a stay the shipowner must be able to show that the stay would not deprive the plaintiff of a legitimate personal or juridical advantage that is available to him in the New South Wales Court. As the plaintiff would probably not be able to invoke the Contracts Review Act if the matter was heard in Greece, where the exclusive Greek jurisdiction clause would be upheld (and no doubt a Greek court would hold that the proper law of contract was Greek) the plaintiff would, if the stay were granted, have been deprived of the advantage of being able to invoke the Contracts Review Act. Accordingly the appeal was dismissed. In a forty page dissenting judgment Kirby J rejected the argument that the legal principles governing air transport should be distinguished from those governing sea transport. He considered that the shipowner did take all reasonable steps to bring its terms and conditions to the attention of a passenger. He thought the brochure clearly stated that there was a passage contract, as did the exchange order which referred to the passage contract. He considered that the contract had to be construed in accordance with its language and not be subject to a strained construction in order to reduce the ambit of terms which may be considered unfair. Kirbo gets it right - Kirby J considered the contract was made when the ticket was exchanged for the order in Greece or by the subsequent conduct of the passenger in starting the journey, thereby by inference, accepting the carrier's conditions. Alternatively, he thought that the ticket contained such express and extensive limitations and exclusions as to preclude the existence of an antecedent contract of carriage. Thus the ticket did not amount to an agreement at all and the agreement was not formed until the passenger boarded the vessel, thereby accepting the conditions of the ticket of which he had notice and a copy of which was by that time with his agent. In the third alternative, he thought that there may have been an executory agreement so that the exchange voucher was an offer capable of acceptance upon its exchange for the ticket of carriage, that the actual agreement was not made until the exchange took place when the order was exchanged for the ticket in Athens. Thus he concluded, on any of these alternatives, the binding contract was made in Greece. He refused to exercise his residual discretion to decline the stay of proceedings, on the basis that the parties had agreed by the ticket to submit 62 (1988) 5 MLAANZ Journal to the jurisdiction of the Greek courts. He also considered that Yeldham J had wrongfully exercised his discretion concerning the most convenient forum for the action. Firstly, Greece was the place to which the contract had the closest and most real connection. Secondly, the proceedings could be futile as there was no prospect of recovering the judgment against the defendant. Thirdly, the Greek shipowner should not be put to the inconvenience and annoyance of having to submit to the New South Wales Court having no residence or presence in the country. Accordingly His Honour refused to grant the stay. The shipowner's appeal was dismissed by majority. The shipowner has obtained special leave to appeal to the High Court and the appeal will be heard in December. Link to post Share on other sites
indosnm 0 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 The Japanese travel agents usually will not give you the ticket until you get to the airport! Very lucky if you can pull it off. That way, I guess they have you by the nads! Link to post Share on other sites
rach 1 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 It is extremely easy. Ask them to. I always do, and they always send it. Simple. Or maybe I'm just really really clever. That might be it. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Rag Doll, I think we should stick to the traditional conditioning of fresh minds on Offer and Acceptance and only concentrate on English case law. I'm not going back to my lecture notes, suffice to say I hated studying it. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 this sort of stuff was ok it was administrative, constitutional, corporate and civil procedure and half a dozen other areas that drove me nuts. I loved crim though, if it paid better I would have gone for that instead. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I liked crim. Gave me a good perspective on what one could get away with. Link to post Share on other sites
scouser 4 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I don't understand those posts. I think I'll just turn up too. Link to post Share on other sites
rach 1 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Hey CreekBoy, how much was it you had to pay? Any interesting tales since the original contact? Link to post Share on other sites
hakubabum 0 Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Yeah do tell. I am going to Canada in September and not heard anything on my ticket different airline. Link to post Share on other sites
Yuki's Passion 1 Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 when I was first given the info, it looked like 2man added on top, which is why I was pissed. But, in actuality, its 6000. Thats reasonable. I bet we will have to face these added taxes as part of our daily lives based on world oil prices at the time. Just wait till the next oil crisis... Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 so you pay or no pay gringo? Link to post Share on other sites
rach 1 Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 OK thats not too bad. I still haven't been contacted so I suppose I'm ok with my issued ticket. Link to post Share on other sites
MrMuggles 0 Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Got the same call Creek Boy. Damn. I dread to think what the charges will be in a year if the costs keep on rising the same as they have been. Link to post Share on other sites
Yuki's Passion 1 Posted July 6, 2008 Author Share Posted July 6, 2008 MM, are you flying Northwest? Link to post Share on other sites
klingon 10 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 My friend had that same ^ with Northwest. Link to post Share on other sites
MrMuggles 0 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 CB, yes it is. Link to post Share on other sites
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