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I completely agree with you Rag-Doll about the embarrassing scenes we see with politicians standing in front of anything from a bush fire to a child's destroyed sandcastle on the beach wringing their hands and blaming it on CC. My number one desire in all this would be to have the issue (a scientific one) removed entirely from the sphere of politics and handed over to scientists and economists. Effective solutions don't fit with short terms of office, and the issue is too open to political manipulation. I realize this is an impossible proposal but it illustrates the point that scientific problems should not be tackled by populists.

 

I'm interested in scientific consensus without the baying crowd editing the story, and whilst natural El Nino / La nina events should be treated as such, the IPCC would be laughed out of their seats had they not taken them into account. Scientific peer review is incredibly thorough and stories de-bunking CC would sell just as many papers as CC itself. Actually, probably more.

 

ps. Mooooo! (there we go, still on topic)

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A quick segue re: Mooooo...(Brought on by the extinct words thread)

... I heard the other day that "Moo" now means "boring".

 

I wondered why my kids Moo-ed when I asked them to clean up thier rooms!!!

 

BACK ON TOPIC:

As someone who saw the ballot papers and studied the stats of the last federal election and the last WA state election there is a massive swing to voting green (not that it bore fruit - as no candidates were actually elected!) but upon closer inspection (asking Green voters for example) it seems that the majority of people vote green as a vote FOR THE ENVIRONMENT - it is not a vote for Green's Policies because lets face it they don't really have any of substance - it is simple a vote to express desire for something to be done on the environmental issues.

 

With this information - sorry - but it is now a politcal tool. Whether that is good or bad thing for the environment itself is debatable and probably only able to be examined in retrospect. But more and more environmental issues will be a part of politics. Because it wins or loses votes.

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Yes people like the idea of a peaceful and green environment where there is no pollution, with plenty of fish in the sea (as long as they can still have their orange roughy, their sushi and sword fish dinners and go fishing on the weekends), with animals roaming free in their unspoilt natural environments (as long there is still land for development, and farming and homes and we don't have dangerus animals roaming the streets or crocs or sharks patroling the beaches) and vast tracks of unspoilt forests (as long as the local paper is still delivered each morning) and clean skies ( as long as they can still fly overseas for holidays and by those out of season vegies) and long as fuel is still cheap enough to keep the car on the road.......

 

Supporting the environment is a bit like supporting democracy. Seems like a no brainer until one considers the consequences!

 

The idea appeals, the practical consequences don't.

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Spot on Rag-Doll, which is why I've (alarmingly) found myself pondering the idea of a board of scientists and economists making tough unpopular unilateral decisions based on fact not desire. Never thought I'd be considering dictatorship, but we're collectively too soft to make the tough moves required until it's way too late.

 

Successive Australian governments have allowed the country's greatest/most productive river get to a deplorable state through overuse, and are only now buying back irrigators' water entitlements. They knew about El Nino/La Nina, periodical prolonged drought, and CC yet couldn't make the unpopular decisions needed.

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IMO the green vote is the middle classes trying to lessen their guilt about the lives that they lead. They have no intention of giving up on their SUV's etc but they feel that if they vote Green then everything will be ok.

 

I don't vote green, not because I don't think that true environmental issues are important, they are, but because those green politicians are no better than any other zealot. They are too fundamentalist that would have us back clicking stones together in an instant. I agree with Greenroome in that its time that the Environment was de-politicised as doing or saying something just because its popular in the present is not gonna do anything for the environment in the long term.

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I am not arguing that - I think you are spot on...and I don't vote Green either!

 

But I do think that 'the masses' see it that way (the SUV driving middle classes as you put forward). IMHO I think the Green conscience appeasing vote is far more endemic and diverse than that though! It is people who have given up the SUV, people that could never hope to buy the SUV - the young...the old... It is no longer that select group appeasing thier nagging guilt!

 

I also don't think it achieves too much to cast that Green vote... And de-politicising environmental issues would be far more beneficial. But will it happen? Can it happen?

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Actually I haven't commented here yet, but all this talk about global warming, I don't believe it is happening, rather I think the earth is starting a cooling trend and within a few years at most will go into an ice age again.

The earth is on its cooling down cycle now, I think, like it has done before, throughout history earth has had cooling periods and warming periods, and for the past two years temperatures have actually been colder not hotter.

 

The sun not just the atmosphere effects the earths temperature, as does the angle and trajectory of the rotation of the earth too, as this effects wind and current flows.

 

This is of course my observation and theory only, I have no scintific facts to back up what I am saying, but I think we will start to see more and more colder winters and summers from now on, although I don't think this coming 08/09 winter will be all that cold in Japan anyway.

 

 

Even if the earth does cool, it is still good to try and stay green, because clean air means a healthier body anyway, which equates to a better life!

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Snowdude, are you denying Global Warming?! You sure are brave to write such a thing on this forum. I have given up, tired of people arguing with me. This is a very sensitive topic for some and they take it as if you are trying to deny their god.

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If you look up on the web there is some scientists that are predicting a cooling period similar to the one 400 years ago. Apparently, the sunspot activity is at its lowest since that time (dunno how they know) but this correlates to temperature decreases on Earth. Some people say it will happen, some not! Who knows. One positive is that the north pole didn't break last years minimum cover record. Gives the poor auld polar bears a chance, so this is good. Lets hope it is cooling.

 

I believe global warming is happening, but then in the 1970's I would have believed that global cooling was happening. In any event should we take risks with the environment. Thats the question.

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No of course I am not sure, but then neither are the scientists either, like I said in my post, but I don't believe the earth will continue to warm. Like I said that is my observation only, like I also said I have no scientific evidence to back this up, only my observations.

But put it this way throughout history the earth has had cooling and heating periods with the last mini ice age around 400 years ago or so I believe. And for any who are into this topic, may also know that the sun effects the earths temperature on earth and the weather conditions more than anything else, the sun controls everything!

The sun can also cause a rise in Co2 gases as well, especially when the earth is on a heating cycle.

I certainly don't think it has anything to do with the man made green house effect, because if so why was the earth as warm as it is now if not more so, years ago, way before any polluting industry existed.

Now I know we have the el-nino patterns that effect the weather of course, which could explain the recent weather, but the weather is constantly going crazy and out of sync that this tells me something else maybe at play.

The earths orbit may also move a little, that is another one of my theories. Imagine the size of the earth if it moves even a fraction of a degree from its orbiting trajectory it can effect the flow of the sea currents, wind patterns, thus causing a change in weather patterns. It may take thousands of years, but I think the earth moves slightly from for example -0.25o - .25o, this can be more than enough to change the weather. As the earth goes slightly out of sync, it throws the weather patterns off, as it pulls back to the zero position the weather becomes more stable and remains stable, until the earth moves the other way towards the minus area, thus causing unstable conditions once again along with a change in temperatures.

 

This summer was hot for sure, but not what you would call any record breaking temperatures, not for Japan. We have had longer, hotter and drier summers than this year.

The UK has had two very cool and wet summers in a row too.

 

And in case I am not mistaken, these forums are for discussions, if every time I discuss something I am going to get jumped on by everyone, then I will not bother anymore.

 

Originally Posted By: iiyamadude
Quote:
The earth is on its cooling down cycle now, I think

 

snowdude it sure didn't feel like that this summer.....are you sure? wink

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Lol! Actually yeah the UK summers suck that's for sure, but I think recently they are getting colder and wetter, at least when I used to live in England we would get a few weeks of good weather in total, now it seems it's a few days in total.

 

 

Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver
Originally Posted By: snowdude

The UK has had two very cool and wet summers in a row too.

 

 

Only 2?? Thats the only summers the UK EVER have!! lol

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I say eat what you want, and be happy!

 

Originally Posted By: moloney
Snowdude, opinions are always welcome. So what is the consensus on the topic, should we eat less meat or more kangaroo??
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Originally Posted By: snowdude

But put it this way throughout history the earth has had cooling and heating periods with the last mini ice age around 400 years ago or so I believe. And for any who are into this topic, may also know that the sun effects the earths temperature on earth and the weather conditions more than anything else, the sun controls everything!


Snowdude, whether WE feel hot or cold has bugger all to do with climate change. It's the study of all manor of things from beetle breeding patterns in North America to the life cycle of frogs in the Amazon to 800 year old ice cores to satellite images of the polar caps to plankton studies in the indian ocean.

Scientists has all but reach consensus that the global temperate has ridden about .6 deg. That would hardly be noticeable to anyone and yes we have had major temperature rises and falls in the past. At the end of the last ice age the earths temp rose by 5-7 deg. over a period of 700 years. This time around we are expected to see a similar rise but over a period of just 100 years!

It's the rate of change that's the problem, nature just can't adapt quick enough.

Don't be put off posting your opinion here, debates are always healthy.
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actually, the .6 degree rise is a global average. Temp change is much more drastic at the poles than at the equator, so while people who are in warmer climes and have the buffer of the ocean to keep things somewhat stable (unless you live on a paific atoll that is being swallowed up by the ocean) you won't notice it much.

 

But the Inuit certainly notice the change, as well as the scientists and military that monitor the thickness and size of the arctic ice cap. Its disappearing, and may only be a couple years before it melts away completely in the summer. Which has HUGE implications for anyone and anything that lives in the area.

 

In the short time i have been alive and skiing/snowboarding, i have seen the season at my local resort shrink by weeks, and the snowfall decrease drastically. This is even more drastic when you talk to older people anout the winters of their youth.

 

Even here in Japan, there are tons of stories about how people used tho flood the rice paddies in the winter and ice skae, which tey can't do anymore, or see older buildings in rural Fukushima with exit doors on the second floor, because the snow used to get that high.

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Oh my, even i am suprised at the amount of info on this unpopular subject.

 

This time the culprits are the raving hippies at TIME magazine

 

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1839995,00.html

 

 

 

 

and in news related to the health of our planet

 

1 in 4 mammals are f#cked.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSTRE4942RX20081006?sp=true

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