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 Originally Posted By: fjef


Does "religion is illogical and {there} is a God" make more sense to you?

You mention that people should search for answers - and I think Soubs has clearly said that science now provides us with far more logical answers than religion - so why are you assuming that non-religious people have made their decision because they are lazy or blind?


No, I do not think religion is completely logical, but then a large part of the human existence is illogical and irrational. But that does not mean that we should deny it because it is beyond scientific proof. My point was simply that some people are uncomfortable with some of the ideas presented in religion (I'm referring to ideas of accountability for certain actions. I'm not implying that this is a concept only held by religious people either) and find it easy to accept that there is no god or reject religion because it means they don't have to be accountable for certain things. I said some people. I'm not generalizing about all people who reject religion, but I see this as a fairly common pattern. Just because Soub said clearly that science now provides more answers than religion doesn't deny or confirm the existence of either one. So religion doesn't provide all answers. So what? Most people I know with some kind of faith never claim that it is bullet proof. It is faith. And I am not implying that all non-religious people have made their decision through laziness or blindness, just that some have. This is the accusation made against many people with faith, but I think it applies equally to both sides of the fence.

Having said all this, I would not describe myself as particularly religious. I have my own beliefs and faith, and I have doubts about aspects of it from time to time. That is natural. That is human. I'm not assertive about it towards other people, and it amuses me that many non-religious people seem to be as aggressive about slamming religiono as they often claim the religious are about denying anything else. Seems a bit like a double standard to me. (That is not aimed at you fjef)
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 Originally Posted By: Mamabear

fjef,
Come on...
All human beings are born with an innate need for affirmation encouragement and support. Regardless of the Vicars strength of faith he will feel personal discomfort reading a lot of these replies.
That is normal, natural and human.

Hats off to the Vicar for taking the time and effort to read all the replies and get a sense of the opinions of 'the masses' despite being uncomfortable for him! Whether he agree's or disagree's with what has been said, he is taking the time to listen to you. You go Vic!


But if a person who calls himself a Vicar has enough faith to convince others to believe in God (isn't a Vicar a form of priest in most religions?), why would reading anything questioning that faith be uncomfortable? Seems to be quite the contradiction and that he should be quite comfortable - by definition - dealing with the subject matter.
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I agree fjef. If he is a real vicar, then yes, he should be quite happy to read these comments. But that doesn't mean he won't find some of the questions difficult to deal with and in that sense be a little uncomfortable.

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 Originally Posted By: Bushpig
[quote=fjefThat people of faith(s) can be good should be obvious - but for many people of 'faith', the reverse is often harder to accept. Most religions do not teach or accept that non-believers can be good people. This is where a lot of problems start.

Well that certainly wasn't the case in the christian church I grew up in fjef. That was a given, and emphasised many times. Modern day christianity is, in many cases and in many demoninations, a lot different from how it was during the middle ages in terms of acceptance.


How much has this really changed? Modern churches might teach a higher level of tolerance toward people with different beliefs but I don't think they have gone as far as accepting non-believers as 'good' people who will go to Heaven.

My parents did not baptize me and were ostracized by some of their friends and most of our relatives because of it. I have chosen not to be baptized as an adult and I am often told that I am doomed to go to hell because of this choice. I don't think being good as a person is good enough according to what I was taught in church and by Christians.

I am quite comfortable with my decision to be doomed but it sure has upset a lot of Christians who know that I have made this choice. I don't want to be saved because I simply do not believe in it! Based on this alone, I have been told by ministers and church members that I cannot be considered a 'good' person in the eyes of the Christian church and I will be merrily on my way to Hell unless I accept Christ as my Savior.

Do you mean to say that your Christian church teaches that God will issue a ticket to Heaven to, for example, 98% of Japanese who are not Christian and all of the Muslims, Jews and thousands of other religious people and maybe even some homosexuals and adulterers who do not accept Christ as their savior? You were taught that some of these people will get a pass and get to Heaven anyway? Is it possible to be a 'good' person who rejects Christ and be allowed into Heaven? I don't think so....
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no, I am not saying that christian churches teach you can get into heaven with a "free ticket", but all the people I know do not say you can not be considered a good person in the eyes of the church unless you are a christian. That's just fugged up mate. Sounds like your experience of the church is quite different from mine. In any case, my experiences do not ring true to a lot of the stereotypes and complaints against christians.

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Is it possible to be a 'good' person who rejects Christ and be allowed into Heaven? I don't think so....

 

Nope, exclusiveness is a big sticking point for many. I havnt resolved that one. Not with "good" people who reject Christ. The others? Well it does say quite clearly that they will be judged by their own standards. Dunno if that helps. I dont really think we want a discussion on theology do we? The main point of this discussion is who believes or not. I have faith in a God who is 'personal' and not a nebulous being. I rebel at the thought that there is no 'design' in the universe and that conciousness is a random abberation.

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 Originally Posted By: Fossil
I rebel at the thought that there is no 'design' in the universe and that conciousness is a random abberation.


That's interesting - I 'revel' at the thought that there is no 'design' in the universe and that conciousness is a random aberration. . . just one letter different and a whole different world view!
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 Originally Posted By: thursday
there are just too many possbilities in this universe for one school of thought.


Which is totally reflected in this thread - there sure are some diverse opinions...I just wish that people could exist in harmony - you know? Like have 20 people in a room, all great mates, but all with different perspectives on life, the universe and everything...
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 Originally Posted By: Bushpig
no, I am not saying that christian churches teach you can get into heaven with a "free ticket", but all the people I know do not say you can not be considered a good person in the eyes of the church unless you are a christian. That's just fugged up mate. Sounds like your experience of the church is quite different from mine. In any case, my experiences do not ring true to a lot of the stereotypes and complaints against christians.


I am not saying 'free ticket' - I am saying that if you are a person who has even better credentials than Mother Teresa at being 'good' and you simply reject Christ as millions of people do, the Christian church says you go to Hell. And I do agree with you that it is fugged up.

I don't think any accepted Christian church can or does teach anything different and can still be called Christian. The fact that many Christians do believe that 'good' people can go to Heaven is a different issue. According to Christian doctrine, the people who believe that are wrong - the official line says that if you reject Christ - yer doomed.

So, you can't be judged a 'good' person in the eyes of a Christian church unless you accept Christ at some point in your life (or in some kind of final judgement when you die according to some denominations). It all comes down to accepting Christ as your Savior.

I have had friends and relatives try and persuade me to get baptized 'just in case I am wrong' so I can hedge my bet. But I have faith that it would be a waste of time.

Maybe the Vicar can correct me if I misunderstood?

Note: I may have chosen the wrong person as an example - Mother Teresa had a few skeletons in her closet - there are a few books about her like this one: The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa In Theory And Practice, by Christopher Hitchens
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 Originally Posted By: Mamabear
I just wish that people could exist in harmony - you know? Like have 20 people in a room, all great mates, but all with different perspectives on life, the universe and everything...



Put 20 top scientists in a room with different perspectives - like Physicists, Biologists, Chemists, Mathematicians etc and it would likely be a very interesting, productive discussion about life, the universe and everything - it happens all the time.

But put 20 devout religious people in a room - like Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, with a smattering of people from their sub-denominations - to discuss life, the universe and everything and you better have metal detectors at the doors and security guards around to stop the violence - it happens all the time.
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 Originally Posted By: fjef
[Put 20 top scientists in a room with different perspectives - like Physicists, Biologists, Chemists, Mathematicians etc and it would likely be a very interesting, productive discussion about life, the universe and everything - it happens all the time.

But put 20 devout religious people in a room - like Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, with a smattering of people from their sub-denominations - to discuss life, the universe and everything and you better have metal detectors at the doors and security guards around to stop the violence - it happens all the time.


yeah - see THAT is what I mean....
I can have a conversation with people who hold a different view point than me - but I am not in any way extremist or 'devout'.
Why can't other people do that!
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 Originally Posted By: Mamabear
[
yeah - see THAT is what I mean....
I can have a conversation with people who hold a different view point than me - but I am not in any way extremist or 'devout'.
Why can't other people do that!


the reason they can't is the exact same reason you don't understand that they can't. Too locked into their own world belief system.

to you, the solution is obvious. To them, the solution is obvious.

(by the way, well said fjef.)
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I would applaud the man who made a real-life "lost in translation" documentary citing various situations in life that simply don't translate across languages in reference to world-belief systems.

 

That would actually be an interesting movie.

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fjef, I don't want to get drawn into a long debate about this. I'm happy for anyone to believe what they want, and I don't and won't judge them for that. I am only taking issue with your assertion that people who don't accept Christ are judged to be not good people. That is a mistaken notion of how christianity views non-christians. It's not about who is good or bad, but about whether you accept that Jesus was who he says he was, or not. (I'm not preaching here, just giving my answer to a point you raised). If we are judging by good or bad, then many "bad" people get into heaven (according to christianity). The guy on the cross next to Jesus who had been strung up for murder/stealing who Jesus looked into his heart and accepted is a good example. It is not about saying someone is only a good person if they believe. You have that bit of logic twisted up. I'm not arguing about the exclusivity of christianity, just that your perception of how non-christians are judged as bad people is not correct. If the people you know are like that, then that sucks. But that is not representative of christianity.

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