The choices we make

[me jane 0]

Was just thinking about this, re Soubs & TT's exchange on the Steve Irwin thread. Parents make decisions that others parents wouldn't dream of but it doesn't mean they care any less about their kids.

 

Steven Irwin held his baby near a crocodile. I personally can't see any benefit to the child but still it was Steve's call and a planned, informed one. I respect his judgement.

Most of us on here will or have already taken our children out on the mountains. Baby FT is will be in avalance country by the time she is 10 and the mini Indo's are going to see their fair share of sharks. Even when I tell some people that MMT goes hiking in my back carrier, they panic.

Most parents drive cars. Even if they are in car seats, over half aren't fitted correctly and wouldn't stand up to an accident.

I read recently that 70% of accidental deaths in children aged 1 to 3 happen at home.

It would be my guess the risk of incorrectly fitted car seats and household accidents would be lower in "outdoorsy" parents used to relying on equipment and looking out for potential danger signs.

 

Soubs, you are very quick to judge Steve Irwin, yet you choose to live in a different country from your children. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not criticising you at all. You have made the right decision for your situation which I know very little about. My point is that we shouldn't be so quick to judge other parents because we don't know the full story and most are doing their best.

[soubriquet 0]

Fair enough, me jane. I'm not going to get drawn into an argument.

 

I've been travelling alone in mountains and deserts since I was a teenager. Some people regard that as an unacceptable risk. The CSIRO wouldn't allow me now to do what I used to do 10 years ago. I've never had a fall, an accident or got stuck. Maybe I've been lucky, but I'd say it was mostly down to good judgement.

 

I have been kicked by a horse, and tossed by a bull calf. Both were very painful experiences. They taught me to respect the personal space of animals, even domesticated ones. You can assess the risk of a fall in the mountains, and if you judge it too great, take another route or turn back. You can't tell whether a wild animal will attack or not. To my mind, there's a difference.

[me jane 0]

I travel alone in the mountains too. You can assess the risk, but if your assessment is zero then you have miscalculated. For many of us the personal benefits outweigh the risk.

What you say about good judgement is true, but good judgement comes with experience, of which Steve Irwin had more than most. I think in most cases it's a combination of the education, gear, judgement and luck. The best prepared, most experienced people, who make all the right decisions can still get into trouble. It's true you can assess the risk of a route to a certain extent, but you never know when there will be a rock fall, like that outdoor leader guy Aaron Ralston recently who was trapped by a boulder for 5 days on an easy day hike. Weather can be very unpredictable (I've been caught on the top of Mt Fuji in an unforcast typhoon with 40m/s winds).

 

Based on my personal experience, I think that any risk assessment Steve made about an animal, would be more accurate than any I could make about rock falls or weather in the mountains, but it won't stop me going, or taking MMT.

[soubriquet 0]

Steve Irwin made a profession of invading the private space of wild animals. He's dead

 

I take risks too. Getting out of bed. Walking downstairs. Boiling the kettle to make tea.

 

The difference is that I'm in control. I'm alive.

[me jane 0]

I don't think that difference is as clear cut as you make it out to be.

True, you are alive but can you really claim to be in control when there are so many factors in life beyond your control? You can't predict nature or animal (including other human) behavior. We live on a planet controlled by nature and the fact that you are alive is only partly because you have made the right decisions.

 

On a side note:

Thinking back to some of the drunken "decisions" I used to make (pre-married life), control had nothing to do with it, pure luck that I'm still here!

[Mantas 3]

I look at it this way. Steve Irwin died because it was a work place accident. Like many thousands of people do every week on this planet. his work place was dangerous, just as is a truck-driver, rigger, policeman, fireman, soldier, sailor......., whatever.

 

Yes it was his choice to work in this environment. And he became a workplace statistic by way of a freak accident. And yes thats exactly what it was. He swam too close to a 'harmless' animal, as I have done many times myself whilst spearfishing.

 

On the baby/crocodile thing. I was at Australia zoo a couple of months ago. They made a crocodile 'run' at full speed across land. It was laughably slow.

[soubriquet 0]

He swam too close to a lethal animal. If he'd given it 2 metres, he'd still be alive.

 

Why am I the only one to regard getting into killing space as stupid behaviour?

[Mantas 3]

Well that makes me stupid..... along with many others. I accidently layed on top of one once while stalking a fish. People get stung by stingrays all the time, it happens here sometimes where I live. The fact that he was struck in the orange sized area of the heart, Not in the leg, foot, arm, arse and the 4" barb was just long enough to penetrate..making him only the second person in 200 years of recorded history in Australia to die from a sting ray wound.

 

Oh BTW.. Here's some of the "greedy dickheads" work.

 

>Stevo. A non-drinker or smoker, committed family man, donated the vast majority of his wealth to various causes, some of which are listed below;

 

 

Funds and projects created and funded by the Irwins

 

Australian Wildlife Hospital… Rescue and rehabilitation of sick and injured animals. Incorporates training for student vetinarians

 

Australian Wildlife Conservation……A team of Wildlife Warriors Worldwide animal experts, including researchers and veterinarians, have provided advice and services to respond to situations that are placing wildlife in jeopardy.

 

 

Tiger conservation unit……India, Sumatra, Bhutan

Keeping the Tiger Conservation and Protection Units (TCPU) in operation. The TCPU consists of mobile teams of four trained personnel that conduct forest patrols and investigate reports of poaching and other environmental crimes. Working with local communities. We offer practical solutions to mitigate conflict between local villagers and wildlife, and educate local villagers on environmental protection. Each TCPU (Tiger Conservation and Protection Unit) costs approximately $87,000 and includes: Education ?Training?Vehicles?Communication equipment?Surveillance equipment?Camping/general equipment?Community education

 

Tsunami Relief….. In late January 2005, representatives from Australia Zoo and Wildlife Warriors Worldwide visited tsunami-devastated areas of Aceh. The purpose of the trip was twofold: to deliver urgently required veterinary supplies for elephants working to recover bodies from the disaster area, and to provide humanitarian aid to forest guards affected by the disaster.

 

Cheeta conservation…. Wildlife Warriors are working in partnership with De Wildt Cheetah and Wildlife Centre in South Africa to track and relocate problem cheetahs away from local villages.

Crocodile Conservation….. Wildlife Warriors Worldwide is working on important research programs in Queensland (Australia) with the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service and the University of Queensland to better understand the movements and habits of crocodiles, in an effort to facilitate the planning of community developments and potential animal relocation. The results from this research are already re-writing text books and will help to protect both crocodilian and human populations.

 

Elephant conservation….. Working in partnership with Fauna and Flora International in Cambodia, we are investing in a range of strategies to prevent the destruction of habitat and helping local villages to co-exist with the elephant. Securing the income of farmers affected by the local elephant populations is a main priority in mitigating human-elephant conflict (often referred to as HEC).

Included in these strategies is the planting of chilli around crops (elephants hate chilli), helping to recover property loss as a result of elephant activity, the implementation of educational campaigns, elephant tracking, anti-poaching patrols and prevention of illegal logging. The work is extensive and intense, and is helping to build a future in which the protection of this amazing gentle giant is assured.

 

The Irwin Foundation…. Since 1995, funding from The Irwin Foundation has provided scholarships and assisted other programs to support veterinary education, including:

Scholarships

0. James and Claire Irwin Scholarship Fund at Michigan State University

0. The Tracy Hammer Endowed Fellowship

0. The Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at Cornell University

0. The Veterinary Technician Scholarship Fund at Michigan State University

0. The Veterinary Technician Scholarship Fund at Purdue University

0. Marine Corps Scholarship Fund

University of Pennsylvania Opportunity Scholarship

 

Add to this countless hour of tourism promotion boosting Northern Australia’s tourism industry immeasurably all done for free.

 

He bought up huge parcels of land in Fiji, Africa, the US and Australia to set aside for wildlife.<

 

 

Feel free to post your contribution to the planet Soub.

 

I dont want to get into this again, think what you like.

 

[soubriquet 0]

He chose to kill himself

 

dickhead.

 

Take your argument elsewhere.

[frannyo 2]

 Quote:

I think that any risk assessment Steve made about an animal, would be more accurate than any I could make about rock falls or weather in the mountains

....and certainly more surely more than we could about that animal.

[SnowJapan 178]

I think we have surely heard enough of the "dickhead" calling in this and the other related thread, so can we please avoid it.

[soubriquet 0]

Shure thing. Do you hold your child up to ge eaten by crocodiles SJ1?

[Tubby Beaver 209]

A few points here*

 

1.) crocodiles CAN run very fast over land, however its for very short bursts, they tire easily due to their weight when out of water amnd can only run in straight lines, they can't turn quickly.

 

2.) I think too much was made of the baby/crocdile thing. Steve Irwin, with all his experience with wild crocodiles and with the knowledge that he had many spotters in the crowd informing him of the crocs position, made a calculated decision. The baby was unharmed, in fact was never in any danger. People take risks everyday, if you were never to take risks, including with your children, then you wouldn't leave your house. Every single task, especially when considering children, turns into a risk assessment.

 

3.) When Steve Irwin died it was as a result of a freak, accidental hit of the barb through his heart. It was accidental in the sense that the stingray didn't decide to try and hit him in the heart, he got too close, it struck and unfortunately for Steve Irwin it was a million to one shot in the heart and he died. His shows were always made as safe as they possibly could be with spotters off camera armed with guns should the worst happen, Steve knew the risks. The strange thing was that he didn't die from what is considered to be a dangerous animal such as the crocodile.

 

4.) as it was accidental, how could he possibly have chosen to kill himself, Soubs that was a pretty glib comment to come out with.

[samurai 0]

I have a friend who dropped into a foggy line, lost sight, tumbled over rocks and is now paralyzed from the waist down. Did he choose to get paralyzed?

 

How about another friend who aired to flat in the park. blew up his spine. Did he choose to be paralyzed as well?

 

Another friend on a speed mission on morning cord with no public around lost an edge and hit a tree, destroyed the nerves in his shoulder and can no longer move his right arm. Did he make that choice.

 

Did I choose to dislocate both my shoulders approx 40 times and go through 2 surgeries out of choice? I no longer fall. That's not a choice, that's a decision. A commitment. I will never fall again. I guess I choose not over-step my limits.

 

Doug Coombs did make that choice. He threw himself in front of his skiing/climbing partner, who was sliding down a chute, in an attempt to stop him from falling off a fatal cliff. They both fell. That's an example of making a life or death choice and losing. Yet, he's still considered a hero. And he should be. Because he was faced with, and made, the ultimate choice. Ironically, that choice had nothing to do with his self.

[indosnm 0]

 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver

His shows were always made as safe as they possibly could be with spotters off camera armed with guns should the worst happen, Steve knew the risks.

What a F&'%ing joke. If you knew anything at all about the man and his love for animals then you would know that he'd never shoot a croc for the sake of a 1hr doco.
That sounds like an American version!

[soubriquet 0]

 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver

4.) as it was accidental, how could he possibly have chosen to kill himself, Soubs that was a pretty glib comment to come out with.

If he'd kept 2 metres away he'd still be alive. He chose to get nice up and tight in the face of a wild animal with a deadly sting. He got killed. That was no accident, it was his choice.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

The accident was that he got hit in the heart. He made a calculated decision, thinking that if he did get hit it probably wouldn't be fatal. Him getting hit in the heart was a million to one chance and unluckily for Steve it happened. But as has been said countless times, life is all about calculating risk. He didn't choose to die though.

 

Well perhaps that isn't true about the guy with a gun, but it is what I read in an article about his tv shows. i didn't know you were such good friends with the man himself

 

american?? why do you say that?

[soubriquet 0]

It was no accident. He chose to put himself where he had no control over a potentailly deadly situation, and got himself killed. It's rather like skiing in an avalanche gulley after heavy snow. Who's fault is that?

[me jane 0]

 Originally Posted By: samurai

I have a friend who dropped into a foggy line, lost sight, tumbled over rocks and is now paralyzed from the waist down. Did he choose to get paralyzed?

How about another friend who aired to flat in the park. blew up his spine. Did he choose to be paralyzed as well?

Another friend on a speed mission on morning cord with no public around lost an edge and hit a tree, destroyed the nerves in his shoulder and can no longer move his right arm. Did he make that choice.

Did I choose to dislocate both my shoulders approx 40 times and go through 2 surgeries out of choice? I no longer fall. That's not a choice, that's a decision. A commitment. I will never fall again. I guess I choose not over-step my limits.

Doug Coombs did make that choice. He threw himself in front of his skiing/climbing partner, who was sliding down a chute, in an attempt to stop him from falling off a fatal cliff. They both fell. That's an example of making a life or death choice and losing. Yet, he's still considered a hero. And he should be. Because he was faced with, and made, the ultimate choice. Ironically, that choice had nothing to do with his self.

I agree about your 3 friends not choosing to get injured. They knew the risks and for want of a better word, were "unlucky". I don't think the situation with Doug Coombes is very different though. He took a risk (admittedly a higher one) and was unlucky. He didn't make that choice planning to die, he was hoping that they both would live.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you have decided to no longer fall. Have you stopped skiing/snowboarding?

[SerreChe 2]

Not to deviate from Samurai's example, but on a side note, last I heard DC did not throw himself in front of his friend, although I could be wrong and new info may have emerged in between. Top man he was, regardless.

[soubriquet 0]

 Originally Posted By: samurai

I have a friend who dropped into a foggy line, lost sight, tumbled over rocks and is now paralyzed from the waist down. Did he choose to get paralyzed?

He chose to do something difficult when he couldn't see. That was his(?) choice.

Alain Prost hated racing in the rain. It had nothing to do with driving an F1 car on a wet track. It was entirely down to not being able to see. If it's too foggy to see, keep to the safe path. That is a fairly simple choice.

[samurai 0]

I think the term choice is turning into a semantic debate... one not worth any further effort on my part.

 

Anyway, regarding coombs, to my understanding he was trying to aid his friend who had fallen off a cliff at La Grave. My apologies for my hanging onto initial reports that he tried to stop his friend from falling. I now understand he fell after his friend. Nonetheless, he died during a rescue attempt, making completely selfless choices.

 

I don't know how I managed to never follow up on initial reports. Something of which, I imagine, I'm often quite guilty.

[soubriquet 0]

I'm happy to drop it. Soubriquette gave me a lovely cuddle this morning, and everything in the world is good.

[me jane 0]

Is anyone watching the Richard Branson search for a new CEO for Virgin? It's on Fox at 1am Tuesdays (Monday nights). The contestants have to do some extreme challenges and if they chicken out or fail, they are eliminated. So far they've done stuff like cross between two hot air baloons on a narrow beam, climb up to the top of the balloon on a rope ladder mid flight and jump out over Victoria falls (attached to a bungee) with another tean mate suspended a few feet out attempting to catch them before they fall. RB threw a spanner in the works last night though by eleminating the guy who was willing to go through with the challenge, with the logic that in business the risk must be calculated and that if he had gone through with that particular one (being strapped in a metal drum, hoised up by a crane and being dropped over Victoria falls) he would have died.

Personally I wouldn't have done the bungee jump. It's just never seemed safe to me: the blind faith in a rope but more the forces that the fall excerts on your body.

 

Edit:

I didn't think this thread would turn out like this. That's why I started a new one as the Steve Irwin thread seemed to be going around in circles. My point was that we all take risks, and shouldn't necessarily judge others. I was imagining that it would end up with people discussing what is and isn't an acceptable risk for them. Guess I didn't put it too well at the beginning

[samurai 0]

I've watched it a bit. It's old. Fox repeats the same crap year after year, then they do a "catch-up" in case you missed it. I'm beginning to hate Fox Japan. Everything on that channel is a rerun from material they purchased like 3 years ago. And, could you (FOX) please stop airing 24 24 hours a day!?

 

Anyway, I like Branson's methodology for selecting the new CEO and liked that show the first time through.