Oyuki kigan 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Well, the other night my (japanese) girlfriend and i went over to a friend's place for coffee, and the 5 of us there got onto the topic of feminism. It was pretty funny, because the guys tended to dominate the conversation (however, the 2 girls present were both Japanese, and might have been having a hard time keeping up in the lingua franca of the evening, English). Anyways, my girlfriend was pretty quiet throughout the evening, and i talked to her about it on the way home. As it turns out, she is not a fan of feminism. Whoa, back up! This is the first time i've been in a realtionship where the girl was not insistant on keeping with feminist (some would call them common-sense) principles of equality between the sexes. So i have been put into the unhappy situation of explaining and defending feminism to my girlfriend. Mostly because the idea of equality is very, very important to me, and is a key aspect in what i think is a healthy relationship. but i feel wierd trying to talk about equality for a member of a group that does not agree. I suspect that we share more in common that not, she is very much against racial/social discrimination, but it is a very new, wierd experience. how about you guys and gals aout there, how do you manage to get along (especially in international relationships)? is gender equality an issue? Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 No issues here. She's a woman, proud, and happy to be "not a man". Feminism is a western female construct. It surves no purpose here. Link to post Share on other sites
bushpig 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 It does serve a purpose here Soub, but perhaps not under the name of "feminism". Most women here would agree on the basic principles of gender equality, even if they don't like the often militant tones associated with western femninism. Link to post Share on other sites
Oyuki kigan 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Author Share Posted June 27, 2007 so are blue jeans, capitalism, and baseball. All of those have found a cozy home here. Your girlfriend sounds quite happy to be herself, which i beleive is the ultimate purpose of feminism. I assume that she is content with the live she has helped choose. Feminism (in my opinion)is the movement to give women the freedom to choose a their own path, not to have it chosen for you by men. Of course, none of us are free totally, but there is a big difference between the choices available now and 70 years ago when your girlfriend's father had the right to sell her into prostitution, very much limiting her choices until her death. Link to post Share on other sites
spook 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 feminism is about equality and choice. in the professional arena, women should be able to compete on an equal footing in all regards. however, this should not be used to detract from those who choose to stay at home and raise a family. i would think that gender equality is an inalienable right in western countries. i'm not up to speed with the state of equality in japan, but i would assume it is somewhat akin to most developed nations (please correct me if i'm wrong, i would like to know more). compare her situation with say, hardline islamic nations, and the rights of women there. she doesn't have to be a bra-burning activist to embrace the basic fundamentals of feminism Link to post Share on other sites
Oyuki kigan 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Author Share Posted June 27, 2007 well, how do you measure how 'equal' a nation is? Although japan may have the only mountain in the world that is still officially off limits to women. girls! get outta the kitchen and on the computer and help us ! This thread is turning into a sausage party! Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 She runs her business, her way. No male tells her what to do. Tell me gender equalitists and linguists. How do French and Italian females de-genderise language when every noun is masculine or feminine? Is it possible, or permissible, to distinguish between an actor and an actress? Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 you have a cheek thinking equality of sexes. Women are far superior. Link to post Share on other sites
naganodave 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Quote: As it turns out, she is not a fan of feminism. Meaning she dislikes it or just not interested? Link to post Share on other sites
bushpig 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 soub, what's the relevance? No-one mentioned French or Italian concepts of feminism. Spook, Japan is still very much 20+ years behind where Aus is now. Not saying Aus has it right or wrong, but the gender gap in salary is a prime example of just how far behind Japan still is. An example. A Japanese woman working in a big company, translating highly technical documents gets paid 1500 bucks a month, while the men who sit across from her desk and basically just shuffle papers get 3000 to 4000 bucks depending on age. This is a real example of someone I knew a few years back. AND she was expected to serve them coffee. This was not specified in her job duties, but that was the reality. These kinds of stories are not uncommon here. That is just one example of how things differ in this country. Link to post Share on other sites
AK 77 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: soubriquet No issues here. She's a woman, proud, and happy to be "not a man". Feminism is a western female construct. It surves no purpose here. The problem with this discussion is that different people will bring different ideas of what 'Feminism / feminism' is to the table (obviously it will be the women bringing it to the table, the men are still watching baseball and drinking beer. just kidding). Feminism was a distinct social movement of a certain place and time - which could be viewed as a 'western female construct', but feminism, is also the principals that transcend that, both pre-dating it and still very much alive and relevant. Feminism does not mean women BEING MEN, it means equality and the (relative - in society) freedom to be women, and determine their own lives. Why feminism is the preserve of a small minority of arty types and unsually confident individuals in Japan is a huge topic, but to say that it has no relevance here directly contradicts the fact that your wife has and runs her own business! What if women didn't have the right to own property? That kind of statement makes you sound like an ageing male happy to live in Japan and take advantage of the comforts that such gender inequality has to offer a man! Which I am sure, from your posts, that you are NOT! Link to post Share on other sites
AK 77 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Back to the original post... Oyuki, I guess this will always be an issue to a greater or lesser degree in 'international' relationships - not always the same way round though! - so I would think it would be best to try to 'work from first principals', i.e. don't talk directly about 'feminism' as this is (mis)understood in many different ways. Instead try to talk about the pricipals in broadest terms that you believe in, and what examples in daily life would explain or illustrate these... like 'equality' or 'not being a violent prick' or 'trying your best' or whatever - the less of a 'label' they are the better. It may be that your gf believes in the same thing, just with different labels... ...or she thinks it's a woman's role to serve and that's it, so just put your feet up! JUST KIDDING. seriously, this thread (let alone site) needs a bit more gender equality... come on female (or non specific!) responses... Link to post Share on other sites
charlotte 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 freedom to be women, and determine their own lives freedom to be men, and determine their own lives That's it. I'm not into politics in a big way and issues like this I just go about my life and know when things are "wrong". The word always reminds me of a woman back at college who was doing everything she could for the "feminist" movement. She was such an over the top cliche character it put me off it all, not many people took her seriously. Link to post Share on other sites
Oyuki kigan 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Author Share Posted June 27, 2007 Thanks Charlotte, and yeah, AK. I was thinking about doing what you suggested. Maybe she has a really wierd idea that feminists are witchcraft-practicing lesbians, or just that its another 'ism' that Japanese people have little interest in following (and thereby seperating themselves into some special group). To me, it just seems like common sense (having grown up in a society that promoted equal rights). I just want people to be happy, or at least to be able to have enough freedom to choose their own path if they are not. for me, feminism is just the name for the circumstance that happens when women's freedom to choose their own path is curtailed by men. Link to post Share on other sites
Oyuki kigan 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Author Share Posted June 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: soubriquet She runs her business, her way. No male tells her what to do. Tell me gender equalitists and linguists. How do French and Italian females de-genderise language when every noun is masculine or feminine? Is it possible, or permissible, to distinguish between an actor and an actress? some people are interested in de-genderizing language. I am not interested unless language is used to suppress or dehuamnize a person, like with racial slurs. perhaps a more appropriate question is whether words like 'shujin', 'okusan' or 'tsuma' are appropriate in culture that professes gender equality. Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Hoho I think it is perfectly reasonable to bring in France or Italy. My point is that we (Anglo-whatever) people have been exposed to one stream of thought. The obsession with newspeak is Anglo-feminism, and cannot be extrapolated further. Right now, next door the builders are laying the slab for a new house. The fore-woman is up to her ankles in wet concrete. I've never seen a woman working on a building site in the west. If you suggested to her that she is discriminated against, you'd probably get hosed by the concrete pump. Link to post Share on other sites
Oyuki kigan 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Author Share Posted June 27, 2007 go try it! Link to post Share on other sites
bushpig 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 maybe, but take a look at her paycheck soubs... Link to post Share on other sites
AK 77 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: charlotte freedom to be women, and determine their own lives freedom to be men, and determine their own lives That is feminism! - with the idea that one does not contradict and deny the right of the other. Historically that has not always been the case (and is certainly not the case in Japan, or most other countries, now) hence feminism also being a movement to try to realise that state of equality - as Oyuki defines it. Link to post Share on other sites
AK 77 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Soub- what makes you think I (we??) have only been exposed to one stream of thought? As people that are mostly living in another country now, that makes at least two streams of thought, plus you don't know what our eductaional background is... I may have written a PhD on changing definitions of women's rights in sub-saharan Africa, or the feminsit movement during the Spanish Civil War, for all you know (I haven't done either, but I digress)! Plus I'm not sure how French or Italian people would feel about being labelled 'Anglo-'! It is admirable that there is a fore-woman on the building sight, but criticisms of the gender inequality in Japan do not mean that it is all bad! Nor do they mean that the criticisers think they come from gender equal utopias back home - there were very big lawsuits over lower pay for women in some high ranking professions not that long ago in the UK, and pay is still not the same for the same work in lower ranking jobs. Link to post Share on other sites
LadyMoonlight 0 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 I think as I am a foreigner living here I don't know the "real" situation - it's almost as if I live in a bubble getting rather special treatment most of the time. But from what I can see, I would not want to be a Japanese woman working in your average company here. I got called Anglo Saxon last night actually. It made me laugh. Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: charlotte freedom to be women, and determine their own lives freedom to be men, and determine their own lives ......The word always reminds me of a woman back at college who was doing everything she could for the "feminist" movement. She was such an over the top cliche character it put me off it all, not many people took her seriously. Sounds like a good definition to me. Oyuki, I think a lot of Japanese women are like Charlotte, while the western feminist movement comes across like the hard-core "feminist" that Charlotte knew in University. It puts them off the movement. I certainly wouldn't think that your gf is backward or unenlightened because she says she doesn't like "feminism". Link to post Share on other sites
SirJibAlot 0 Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I'm really into Feminism...I download all kinds of feminist movies off the internet. My favorite involves 6 feminists going at it with all kinds of toys..... Link to post Share on other sites
Oyuki kigan 0 Posted June 28, 2007 Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 Nice post Thursday, i didn't even need to click it "I thought we were an autonomous collective!" But last night i had her over for dinner and we had a good, long talk. It turns out that she has nothing against the principles of feminism, just how "feminists" come off (or perhaps are portrayed in whatever media she got her views from). It is just an name anyways, as long as she does not expect me to treat her like some kind of princess that can't do anything for herself (and by the way, the kitchen in MY domain, ha ha)the i have no problem. We talked about the state of women in Japan, and she feels that there isn't much of a problem, which is good. But it also ignores the fact that she has been lucky, and not been subjected to sexual harassment, domestic violence, or been motivated to try to reach the top of some male-dominated organization. Link to post Share on other sites
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