Virginia shooting

[YellowSnow 0]

samurai Oklahoma City bombing wasn't at at school. So those people families don't get as much condolences.

[bushpig 0]

Yellowsnow, this was never about comparative condolences. I'm sure we were all just as shocked and wishing well for the families of the Oklahoma victims when that happened. Got a bit of a bee in your bonnet about this one by the sounds of things...

[spook 0]

yellowsnow - i think you need to chill out.

samurai - i think the point FT was making, and one i'm sure many people agree with, is that the prevalence of guns in american society is relevant to tragedies such as this. yes, people are murdered many different ways, but gun deaths per capita are higher in america than in countries with less liberal gun laws. these laws are unlikely to be tightened any time soon.

 

for me the issue is - why do so many americans defend these laws so vehemently? why do so many people want to be armed?

[tsondaboy 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by spook:
for me the issue is - why do so many americans defend these laws so vehemently? why do so many people want to be armed?

I think fear is the issue. What I cant comprehend is fear of what?

[spook 0]

YS - do you have nothing better to do than just stir shit on the internet? surely you have something better to do.

[YellowSnow 0]

How am I stirring shit with you? You are the one who initially addressed me.

[spook 0]

how are you stirring? gee, perhaps by taking the piss out of CB when he mentioned he feels sad for the families of those involved in this event? then by comparing public sympathy after the oklahoma city bombings to this event. then by telling BP and me to suck your left nut.

 

yes, people do give unwarranted attention to deaths in the western world. yep, there's a shitload of suffereing that goes unnoticed elsewhere. no one has denied the point you made

[samurai 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by spook:

samurai - i think the point FT was making, and one i'm sure many people agree with, is that the prevalence of guns in american society is relevant to tragedies such as this. yes, people are murdered many different ways, but gun deaths per capita are higher in america than in countries with less liberal gun laws. these laws are unlikely to be tightened any time soon.

for me the issue is - why do so many americans defend these laws so vehemently? why do so many people want to be armed?

I accept and agree with the first part of your post. To answer your second question about why we defend them is mainly because I have them. And I'm not going to give them up for you.

Taking them away from me because other guys commit crimes is a knee-jerk reaction. when somebody is as twisted in the head to go through with such atrocious methods of expressing themselves, taking the bullets off the shelves won't stop them. It will just force them to plan harder.

When asked why we defend our gun rights, perhaps we need to understand which rights of which you are asking.

There is a 7-day waiting period in california. but tragically, not in Virginia. Actually Virginia has very liberal laws; to better understand my stance, as well as what I would expect 99% of my hunting circle to believe, simply change all the NO's to Yes in the link below for Virginia's gun laws.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=va#bgnd

[YellowSnow 0]

Spook if you told me to "calm down" or "you have a bee in your bonnet" in real life I would tell you to 'suck my left nut' it has nothing to do with "Stirring shit on the Internet"

 

The violence the is pervasive in American society is due to the nature of Americans themselves. Even the the media human life means nothing, they want people dead for the slightest of crimes. Also you have the showboating for how sad that they are for "the families" "the children". I put more value to human life than sending the families my "vibes".

 

Yeah, I am the prick here.

[Fattwins 0]

http://www.vpc.org/press/0602rank.htm

 

You can think your way but Im glad I live here where I dont have to fear guns that others would die to keep hold of.

 

Of course it is the person but a guy with a knife could not have nor would have killed 30plus people.

[samurai 0]

I don't quite care for that generalization about americans, yellowsnow.

 

Have you ever been to the states?

[Yuki's Passion 1]

if nobody talks with yellowsnow then he'll have nobody to argue with. Amazing its still continuing and somebody is actually still speaking with him.

 

Too bad hes not being banned...

 

Thanks for the words BP but its not needed with somebody like that. Not worth my time

[SnowJapan.Com#4 5]

YellowSnow. If you really cannot accept being asked to 'calm down' on here, then just don't post on these Forums.

 

It is as simple as that.

 

Edit: I just noticed that really offensive post from a short while ago. It has been deleted. Do not post another like that.

[YellowSnow 0]

Does Guam count?

 

As much as I want to see other parts of America, I don't want to be finger printer/DNA taken. Also my future travel plans would interfere with me ever going to America (again... Guam)

 

You may not like my generalization, but American media is doing nothing to change my impression.

[tsondaboy 0]

samurai, what’s the percentage of gun related crimes/population at CA and Virginia? Any idea how it goes for the rest of the states?

[samurai 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Fattwins:
http://www.vpc.org/press/0602rank.htm

You can think your way but Im glad I live here where I dont have to fear guns that others would die to keep hold of.

Of course it is the person but a guy with a knife could not have nor would have killed 30plus people.

I hear you FT. I hear alot of people say similiar things. Personally, I never felt any fear living in california, montana, or minnesota. But I do miss hunting. I think all the violence that is perceived to occur in the states that is gun-related is actually very miniscule in comparison to how many people actually have guns. The same is true with canada, as I'm sure you'd agree.

And you're right about the knife comment. But perhaps somebody looking to kill in the masses, yet didn't have access to a gun, would choose something other than a knife?

We could go back and forth, I don't think we actually disagree with each other. And I don't think we will ever get to the root of what happened today.

Nonetheless, thanks for everybody's opinion. If you are anti-gun, which is fine, I don't expect everyone to be pro, please just take a look at the link I posted above regarding state laws. There really is a very large grey area between pro and anti gun. And realize too that most of us gun owners are hunters. When most of defend our rights, we are actually talking about hunting rifles, which aren't really a part of the crime scenes.

anyway,,, blah, blah.

[spook 0]

samurai, this is a legitimate question and i'm not trying to flame you - would you say that most gun owners in the states use them for hunting, or just to have for self-defense (presumably from other gun owners)? if so, why not ban handguns, but keep hunting weapons legal?

 

i grew up in a place without guns, so from my point of view i've always viewed guns as a weapon used to kill things (animals or people). i'm terrified of the things and don't like being around armed people. guns kill in a way that is far more detached that having to use your hands or a blade.

[samurai 0]

That doesn't flame me at all. The statistic you are inquiring upon is pretty hard to validate; self-defense vs. hunting. Personally, I have yet to meet somebody who owns a gun for protection. And I know a couple of dozen people who own multiple hunting rigs.

 

And you are raising a very valid point about banning hand guns and keeping hunting stuff legal. The problem that arises though is that many people do actually hunt with pistols. Crazy as it seems, it does exist. In alaska, for example, perhaps a poor one at that, hikers and fisherman often carry high-caliber pistols for defense against bears. I have on a number of occasions carried a .22 pistol with bird shot in it when deer hunting- not for deer, but for grouse.

 

Also, another very valid point gun owners bring up- is that if you ban hand guns, which would result in citizens turning them over to police, those who intend on commiting crimes aren't going to turn them over. Nor, are the majority of those hand guns legal in the first place. The black market will still exist. And I don't know anybody who would give up their right to protect themselves.

 

Australia had a buy-back program and I'd be curious to know its impact on society.

 

Like I said, the majority of those commiting the crimes, or who have guns for criminal intent, aren't using legals anyway. IMO, a handgun ban would just give the traffickers a bigger black market.

 

*edit; I just emailed a friend in aus who worked for the government during the buy-back and asked for any info regarding gun-related crime statistics. Will report back...

[spook 0]

the australian gun buy back was instigated after the port arthur massacre. licensed hunting weapons could be kept, but handguns, semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons had to be turned in. from what i can remember, there was a bit of fuss about it, but overall it went pretty smoothly. someone who lives on a farm and uses guns regularly might have a different perspective on how reasonable the scheme was, but to a city slicker like me, it seems like a reasonable solution.

the situation is different in australia is different because not as many people own firearms as in the states.

[muikabochi 208]

Terrible thing to happen.

 

(Not downplaying all the other terrible things that are happening )

[tsondaboy 0]

samurai,I noticed in the link you ve posted that there is no law concerning the mental health of the individual that wants/owns a gun.

 

Back home (Greece) handguns/semiautomatic/ automatic are permitted only to policemen or security guards. Civilians can possess only shotguns for hunting but you still need a license issued by the police before you are able to purchase one. In order to get the license, among other paperwork you have to submit a paper from a physiologist stating that you have no mental sickness/problems.

Possessing of firearms without a license issued by the police is illegal and if you get caught you are facing a fine and up to 3 years in the joint.

 

All this info comes from the ministry of justice, I would have post the link to it if it was not only in Greek.

[spook 0]

tsondaboy, these gun laws are all greek to me anyway....

[tsondaboy 0]

 

although its not a thread to get us cheerfull and staff...

[samurai 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by tsondaboy:
samurai,I noticed in the link you ve posted that there is no law concerning the mental health of the individual that wants/owns a gun.
All this info comes from the ministry of justice, I would have post the link to it if it was not only in Greek.

Interesting point. Although I wouldn't object to the proposal of such measures, initally, I will have to admit; The government determing who has the right to defend themselves based on their perception of mental health in the states would take some pretty huge levels of encouragement. I sense an uproar at that proposal in the states.

I think the existing "criminal background check" would be the gun-owners defense to their level of current psychological stability.

An interesting observation, tsondaboy. I think the ACLU would eat it up.

I think that we are going to see some very extensive dialogue occur after today in the states regarding it's state vs. national gun control laws. And hopefully, more people become aware of the gray zone that I mentioned above as well as hopefully start to come up with statistics regarding crime and registered vs unregistered guns.

I would imagine it's pretty hard for somebody to go through with any murder knowing that their ballistics can be traced. tragically, not all current/legallly sold weapons are registered. That law varies by state. And even more tragically, what happened today would not have been stopped even if the owner cared that his gun would be traced.

on a light note-
Be rest assured, mine are registered. And, I just get drunk when I'm pissed off. And at that point, I don't think I would have the ability to open my gun safe.

Keep the dialogue coming, guys. This is just the start.

[samurai 0]

My friend who worked the buy-back program in Aus (whom I referenced earlier) provided me with this article. Interestingly enough, it also from the AGE which held an article posted earlier in this thread.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/a-disarming-cause/2006/04/27/1145861489519.html

 

Sorry, it doesn't give any stats as clear as we would like now.