Bilingual kids

[me jane 0]

One of my friends is planning of having children soon and asked me if I knew of any books on the subject. I remember seeing a book a while back that was geared towards bringing up Japanese & English speaking children rather than just bilingual kids in general. The book was bilingual with English on the right hand pages & Japanese on the left so the parents could read it together. Anyone know this book and have any idea what it was called? Or any other recommendations?

Cheers

[stranger 0]

In the same boat, wouldn't mind knowing

[me jane 0]

Bump.

Anyone?

[Ocean11 0]

My advice - wait till they actually have the kid, and then see how much energy they have for worrying about that. Bringing up fully bilingual kids is very hard work...

[me jane 0]

Is little Ocean bilingual?

[Ocean11 0]

No, he isn't. I had hoped he would be 'naturally' but it doesn't happen like that. Then I hoped he would be by talking to him in English, reading him English books, and showing him English films. But it doesn't happen like that either.

 

What it takes is all of that, and both parents speaking to the child in the outside language most, if not all the time, and frequent visits with the family in the other country. Absent any one of those factors, for any period of time, and you're unlikely to have a bilingual child. Any progress that is made and not consolidated can be lost in a matter of a few months.

 

Another important factor, often overlooked because of people's assumption that it all happens 'naturally', is the pressure that all parties will come to feel. If you don't succeed in having a fully bilingual kid, complete strangers will tell you "What a waste!", and your family at home will nag at you and reproach you for not producing a child that they can talk to easily. Parents that have to speak the foreign language at home all the time my begin to feel very resentful. Having to 'be a foreigner' all the time, either in your own country or in your host country, can get very trying, especially if it's all just for little Hanna and Ken who moan about it anyway. It can come close to breaking up marriages (not in our experience, but in that of acquaintances).

 

If one or both of the parents are (real) language teachers, the chances and motivation for success are probably higher. If one of the parents hasn't bothered to learn Japanese, the chances are also higher.

 

As for books, a great many children's books have been translated, including many from Japanese into English. Shinta Cho's "The Story of Farts" is a winner in our household, in English. You can probably get it in Japanese too. Just look on Amazon Japan, or in your local library, and you should be able to find E/J equivalents of a huge range of books. It may be a fun exercise, but just be aware that it's not going to turn your child into a bilingual Ken or Hana.

 

There's also a generally unexamined assumption that being bilingual is a wonderful thing. It may be, or it may not be, it all depends on the child's current and future circumstances. It may in fact doom the child to a life path that they wouldn't necessarily have chosen for themself. It may actually handicap them in some unforeseen ways. It may leave them not fully competent in any language. And it shouldn't be forgotten either that you can master another language even in your 80s if you really feel the need.

 

I hope that helps!

[indosnm 0]

My observations ( with Japanese women married to gaijin men) have been that the better the gaijin man speaks japanese the less the children can speak english.

I know some half kids who can't speak eng at all!!! and go to english lessons! that in my opinion is slackness on the parents behalf and a "waste" and is going to create "big hurdles" for the kids/family in future..

[Ocean11 0]

So what's your plan to avoid that 'waste'? The bilingual thing all looks as though it's going smoothly at the single word and short sentence stage. Then it gets difficult.

[me jane 0]

Thanks Ocean.

 

I know that it can't be easy and needs a great deal of time and energy from both parents.

I understand too that being bilingual is not automatically a wonderful thing and it certainly isn't for every child/family. But while being bilingual might close some doors it will surely open others. I think it also helps the child to embrace the cultures of both parents in many situations. Of the few dual nationality adults I know, those who speak both languages seem to speak more freely of their background.

 

Thanks for the book suggestions. The type of book I was thinking of is a one with advice to parents on how to help the child with the weaker language, how to prevent him/her becoming resentful of the foreign language etc. Basically a book with suggestions to overcome a lot of the problems you cited.

 

I originally posted for friends of mine who are trying for a baby at the moment but I'll be in the same situation in a few years (hopefully!) so I'm pretty interested in it myself too!

[Ocean11 0]

I think it really helps if the mother is the speaker of the other language. It's not called 'the mother tongue' for nothing. So I guess you'll have an advantage there me jane when the time comes.

[indosnm 0]

O11, the waste I was talking about was kids not being able to speak english (in this case) much more than single words and a few very basic sentences.

 

anyway, we'll be back in OZ before it becomes too much of a problem, then I guess my wife will have the advantage of speaking japanese to them in OZ? Then the difficulty will be on the japanese reeading and writing.

[NoFakie 45]

Bilingual, eh? As the great man sang,

 

Das ist gut! C'est fantastique!

(Hit me, hit me, hit me)

 

Maybe it's just the people I've met but many of those who make the biggest thing about people being multilingual don't know any languages themselves.

 

So long as my kid is functionally literate in something, I don't really care. If comes down to staying in and going through English books with her or going out and playing, it's hard not to choose the latter.

[soubriquet 0]

Ian Drury. I used to know the sax player (taught me everything I know).

[indosnm 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Wiggles:

So long as my kid is functionally literate in something, I don't really care. If comes down to staying in and going through English books with her or going out and playing, it's hard not to choose the latter.

No one's saying that you have to keep your kid indoors reading books to help them learn a language. Very boring that would be for all parties.

[me jane 0]

I would have thought one of the best ways of encouraging kids to use a language would have been to have them out playing with children who speak the same language rather than at home studying.

[montoya 0]

me jane, my mother is Japanese, father is American, and I grew up in California in an English-speaking household. Visited Japan 4-5 times in my youth, was interested in learning Japanese around age 12, but things somehow fizzled out. I only started to study Japanese seriously after I graduated from college. I suppose I speak/read it reasonably well by now.

 

Anyway, if your kids don't want to learn now, no problem they can learn later, but it will probably be a long, demanding road.

[Ocean11 0]

> I would have thought one of the best ways of encouraging kids to use a language would have been to have them out playing with children who speak the same language rather than at home studying.

 

You mean, choosing your friends for the benefits the language they speak will bring to your children...? Dozo...

 

> Anyway, if your kids don't want to learn now, no problem they can learn later, but it will probably be a long, demanding road.

 

Very true. But in fact learning a language is a demanding road at any age. Perhaps we forget how demanding it was learning just our first language. Spelling test anyone?

[Yuki's Passion 1]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Indosnm:
My observations ( with Japanese women married to gaijin men) have been that the better the gaijin man speaks japanese the less the children can speak english.
I know some half kids who can't speak eng at all!!! and go to english lessons! that in my opinion is slackness on the parents behalf and a "waste" and is going to create "big hurdles" for the kids/family in future..

A friend of mine is half too. Her English is exceptional with at least a 900 plus Toeic and spoken sounds very natural. Seems that her Dad, working for the British Council, has been here like 20 years but cant speak any Japanese so she was forced to speak English with him.

Like others have said, seems the best way to get them remotely "bilingual" is to have both parents speak English at home (in Japan) otherwise the success rate is lower.

I read a book at a mates place that deals with this topic - and I know I remember seeing it at F.B.C. on Rokko Island. Ill see if I cant find out what it was...but a lot of it, at least from a teachers persepctive, just seemed to be common sense.

[NoFakie 45]

What do you people mean by "bilingual"? If you're talking about "understanding culture better" and "opening doors", then don't you have to be really good? As in approaching native speaker level? As you can witness from gaijin barhounds in Japan who do not advance beyond casual, usually effeminate speech, you cannot reach native level from socialization ("playing") with adults even. You have to be able to read proper books so you can then be able to acquire skills and knowledge. Without the formal stuff, intermediate English or maamaa nihongo doesn't open doors in the real world. Does A-level French (seven years, reading Sartre in the original) make me trilingual? Or O-Level (five years) German quadralingual? Neither of those languages opened any doors for me. Or helped me particularly understand French or German culture for that matter.

 

For my daughter's case, my next-door neighbours kids do not speak any English. They speak Japanese. We've got friends who are Japanese-Western couples, but its not a given that their kids will all speak English well either. The kids might not even get on. You can't choose your kid's friends.

 

My daughter will most probably learn to understand a fair bit of English because that's how some of the people around her, father included, will speak to her. However, as Ocean described in quite some detail, unless we all actively make lots of effort (which has an opportunity cost), the chances are against her becoming properly bilingual. I hope it happens but the odds are against it. I make a very nice living out of translation, so I fully appreciate the merits of knowing two languages well. I'm just not prepared to lump lots of pressure or expectation on my kid. It's her life.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

Oooohh, literati !!

 

By bilingual, I was thinking that person X's L2 would be at a similar level of L1. Obviously thats quite hard and takes a long time with much effort.

 

Well, just because you can read something in the original text, doesnt make you fluent does it? Japanese are masters at that.

 

If you can converse, interact, and understand X language/culture at a high-level then wouldnt that make you fluent? Why wouldnt you be quadralingual? Cant you rap the lingo in French and German still?

[Ocean11 0]

> I make a very nice living out of translation

 

So do I. Nice from a financial point of view, but I don't really enjoy it. I got stuck in it because I had language skills. And that's precisely what makes me leery of stressing that heavily in my son's case.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

O11, do you want your children to be able to speak in English? What language do you use at home?

[snobee 0]

My daughter's (just turned 7) English has been slowly but surely developing over the years. Esp. comprehension & speach has taken off this year.

What do we do? Most of the things mentioned and..

 

- Try to balance Japanese / English use in the home. Simple is OK. eg. brush your teeth, where's your school bag?, switch off the light, get the phone please etc, etc .

- Greets our friends, adult students in English.

- Listen to English music. eg She can sing at least 15 + Beatles songs.

- Joins in in kids English class

- Goes to Australia at least once a year and attends local school - even for a week or two

- she has a very positive image of being half - I am Aust. & Japanese; I can live in 2 countries; I can speak Eng & Jap; I have friends in Aust & Jap etc.

 

We don't really mention, force, push any of the above. Except for the trips back home, it's all pretty much low key, low cost. Things that anyone could do.

 

But I agree with the point made after seeing friends kids, that if the mother speaks English all the time, then almost certainly the child will. These kids speak better English than my daughter and one of the mothers is japanese. Another couple have 2 boys 11 & 14 who cannot / will not converse in English at all. Zero. My friend regrets big time that he didn't pay attention to it earlier - he admits now that he thought speaking only Japanese would help his Japanese develop naturally. It did, but maybe at the cost of the kids interest.

 

Good Luck all.

 

So Depending on the case

[Ocean11 0]

> O11, do you want your children to be able to speak in English?

 

Of course. But it doesn't happen just by wanting, and there are three people in my family who are not at all committed to it (anymore - I actually taught H11 to read in English, but it was hell, and he can't read English now).

 

> What language do you use at home?

 

Bad language mostly. In Japanese and English.

[NoFakie 45]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
> I got stuck in it because I had language skills.

It's often the way. I enjoy the freedom of freelancing and working at home much more than the actual work itself. Hence the number of posts on this forum for all my little "breaks". It's a good situation to have though. It's very easy to get into doing something else, a labour of love even, if you feel like it. Reducing the amount you work is not an option for many jobs. It's full-time or nothing.

I only brought it up in case anyone was under the impression that I (or the Ocean) didn't know what it's like to be bilingual.

Back home, immigrants get slagged off for not speaking English and teaching their kids foreign languages and customs. They're told to "integrate".