Going off the trail and your relationship with the patrol

[NoFakie 45]

I don't think offpiste riding is necessarily motivated by "bigger and better". Open trees always get tracked before tight trees. Most people who hike routes will choose an open bowl over extremely tight and knarly.

 

Most people go offpiste to find powder which feels really nice, is easy to ride (as barok always says), lets you go steeper, and generally gives you a wide margin for error and a soft landing if you mess up. Most offpiste areas I've seen are pretty much deserted when there is thick crust or slush, which strongly suggests people's motivation in going in there is powder and not the terrain.

 

Even without hitting the freestyle stuff, you can also go bigger and better by learning how to carve proper accelerating turns on the groomed. It requires much more practice and dedication than just jumping in the pow, and to be honest I don't think a lot of offpiste people can be bothered. From their skillz, it certainly doesn't look that way. Once they can get down the steeper bits after a fashion, riding untracked pow offpiste offers an easier and more immediate payback than improving their technique further. If they were after speed-based thrills, they should be riding a race setup and pushing it as hard as they can. A downhiller on groomed is going to go much faster and with a narrower margin of error than anyone in pow.

 

I go offpiste myself, so it's not like I have a problem with it. I love powder! I just don't think going offpiste makes you some kind of extreme-seeking hero. I've probably got more respect for those extreme carving dudes who only ride groomers, albeit with their face two inches from the snow.

 

One of the reasons you don't see as many Japanese people offpiste within resorts is that once local freeriders get into powder, they don't bother with resorts so much and instead hit the backcountry. The otaku factor means that they don't do it by halves. There's also no language barrier to complicate/lessen any dealings they may have with the patrol.

[Fattwins 0]

SKI your facts are bogus. This year Evergreen outdoor center had double the amount of Japanese on the Arac course learning to ride BC.

 

At my Mountain Im the only fulltime everyweek gaijin in there, The rest are Japanese cause they told me about it. There are a 50 to 100 hikers powder seekers hiking above the lifts everyweekend at my mountain. Do you think they are Gaijin?

 

Akemi what you said was racist period! Japanese never blame themselves, you have to understand why you have the problem before you blame ALL THE GAIJINS. Off piste riding is not a crime have the time its not even done on the resorts land.

 

No Fakie your point is taken on improvement I spent many years ripping crap snow just to improve but during the prime season I just see no point in doing it. I love breakable wind crust as much as powder its so fun.

[SKI 15]

Fattwins

 

My facts are not bogus. I am saying what I see, and what my Japanese friends see. (But of course, maybe because this differs from what you think you will not accept it.)

 

As for the Evergreen thing - what do you honestly expect at a place that specialises in these things, one that is based in Japan? I am sure there are more Japanese than foreigners there - and I'm sure that Dave wouldn't be too happy if he didn't have all those Japanese customers. So - what's your point??

 

And what akemi said is not in the least bit "racist".

[akemi7 0]

Thank you Ski.

 

I (and my friend) did not say at all that blame ALL THE GAIJINS. Where did I writing that? I didn't.

 

I writing about there was some problem, that's all. I don't see why is that racist?

[SKI 15]

It isn't racist, akemi7.

[Fattwins 0]

 Quote:

I spoke them about some thing and we talk about English skier and snowboar and this site. They told me that general there is bad reputation of foreigner for doing like this and cause trouble. It is what I heard from them.

I will change it to prejudice

This is the Japanese solution to everything its the Gaijin. Stolen bikes lets stop the Gaijin. (6times in one year) Rise in crime damn gaijin again. (never mind the bike gangs). Skiing out o bounds oh yeah its just the Gaijin. (BS I Know many people Tats, Tomo, kendo sensei, aki, ken, I could quote you more names if you want. All these people duck every rope they see. When they get caught almost nothing is said.

The damn word gaijin is ****kkking racist come to my country and ill call you a foreinger and see how you like it. In fact when you come Ill blame all my countries problems on the foreign Japanese living in my country not respecting red lights and cutting in front of lines.

Now back to the point people skiing with care out of bounds are causeing no one any harm. I never ski a line that has a slide path that comes into the resort. I ski outside of the resort most of the time. Resorts need to move in the right direction. My resort told me to hike into dangerous areas to get my powder fix instead of sking near the resort in safer terrain, oh thats smart thinking now isnt it. Send the punters up the mountain to learn instead of opening up managable terrain inbounds oh yes the resorts know best.

[akemi7 0]

So you change it from racist to prejudice? Before I think you said

 

 Quote:

Akemi what you said was racist period!

, so you change mind?

 

In last post you say about many issue that are not related to this one. It has nothing to do with this issue.

 

So you seem very sensitive on this matter.

 

I am not talking about prejudice, it is fact.

 

Anyway, enough

 

And last I really hope you all enjoy!!

[Ocean11 0]

akemi, you and your mates are racist. Here's why.

 

Japanese people ride off course. How do I know? 2 things. Both Happo and Nozawa have opened ungroomed terrain in the last two years - areas where previously you might have been threatened with losing your pass for riding. Do you suppose that these areas were opened up just for the benefit of foreigners? I don't. No, of course they were opened up for the benefit of the Japanese who are always poaching powder. Whenever I ride off course, 50% or more of the time is with Japanese people I know, and there are always Japanese people there that I don't know too.

 

So the behaviour that you and your friends are condemning is a) done by Japanese, and now regarded as acceptable by some resorts, in some places.

 

By condemning foreigners who ride off course, you are a) ignoring the fact that Japanese do it in very significant numbers, and condemning an activity that is reasonably considered normal anyway (within reasonable limits of course). This shows a high level of racially motivated prejudice and hostility.

 

As for what you are pleased to call 'facts', it is just ill-willed and small-minded gossip. While you like to say "It is not me, I don't work there", you're quite happy to repeat the malicious gossip on a Forum without taking responsibility. The only 'fact' is that your friends are quick to equate what foreigners do as 'trouble' because it is a foreigner that is doing it. You'll notice too that in Shimba's tale of woe, there is a Japanese person riding off course, getting stuck, and yes, causing trouble for the patrol. You forgot about that part didn't you?

 

Shimba, I recommend that you either ignore the patrol as they are likely racists and hypocrites like akemi and her mates. Failing that, you could point out to them that other resorts are opening similar terrain, and ask them to consider doing the same. You could also ask them to use discrimination when it comes to level. If people who go off piste cannot rescue themselves, they shouldn't be in there, and should be warned off, with threats if necessary. You could even offer to make them a sign to that effect in English, provided of course that they put up a similar Japanese one.

 

But no amount of Uncle Tomming by the occasional foreigner or Pollyannish appeals to do what you are told at all times will halt the advance of riders into deeper snow, whether Japanese or foreign. Some resorts have clearly realized this.

[NoFakie 45]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Fattwins:
No Fakie your point is taken on improvement I spent many years ripping crap snow just to improve but during the prime season I just see no point in doing it. I love breakable wind crust as much as powder its so fun.

That's the spirit! Powder is NICE! Fun for all the family! That's the message I think people should be pushing. A lot of resorts seem to think you shouldn't ride in the trees because its "abunai". Instead of pushing some vain "we are so cool and extreme-gotta raise the stakes" line that just reinforces the resorts' prejudices, offpiste riders would be better served by getting the resorts to understand that pow is really pleasant and enjoyable to ride for everyone, rounyakunannyo as they say in Japanese. In many cases, pow in trees is much easier to ride than the moguls or cut up snow on the course nearby.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by NoFakie:
I don't think offpiste riding is necessarily motivated by "bigger and better.....Most people who hike routes will choose an open bowl over extremely tight and knarly.

"Bigger and Better" is a figure of speech I use to infer a more desirable situation to the one available on the groomers. For example, in BC an "open bowl" from the above quote is generally deemed bigger and better than a day on the groomed runs. My comments had nothing to do with the desire for extreme situations, rather those which are more enjoyable and hence more desirable.

[vancity_kid 0]

i was lectured at Goryu for skiing in the pow just out of bounds. The dude sat me down for about 10-15 minutes and told me about the dangers of avalanches. It was actually pretty scary and he set me straight, for that day anyways. The ski patrol dude wasn't really angry, more worried about my safety than anything. And yeah, he felt it necessary to tell me that, "IN JAPAN WE DON'T GO OUT OF BOUNDS!" I

[Big Feet 0]

At Zao it is probably 80% gaijin that go out of bounds. We are usually surprised to see Japanese duck the ropes, and they generally get mucho respect from the Local foreigners if they do!

 

Also they are rarely Yamagata-Jin and more often up from Tokyo. Yamagata people are not the wildest bunch of rule-breakers, so the gaijin have to make up for it.

 

That said I take full responsibility. If something happens, it will be my fault, not the fault of the ski patrol for putting their barriers in the wrong place. At the end of the day I chose to duck the barriers...its my fault!

 

But it so much more fun than being on piste!

[jared 0]

This is not really directly related to this thread and I`m not sure what my point is but...

 

 

Cost of the flight to Japan to get some of the famed Pow. - NZ$1850

Cost of the Shink and bus to a suitable area - $300

cost of the hotel for a week - $1400

cost of your new fat skis - $1300

cost of your beacon shovel probe and pack - $800

 

Chance that you are going defeat the purpose of your entire trip and stay on the course for your entire vacation because a little man in a red suit rapidly motioned to you and said something - 0.5%

[TJ OZ 0]

We were thinking of getting a guide at Hakuba last month until we saw one of them from one of the main backcountry companies having a pipe at 8.30 am just before he was due out. No way would I put my life in this guys hands.I trust my own abilities under the ropes and know that if I had to walk out for 3 hrs so be it. Had no hassles with patrol but didn't hang around for them to catch me.People should be prepared when they go under the ropes. I noticed there wasn't many riders with packs or two-ways in Japan.

[mattlucas 0]

The last 3 or 4 times at my local hill there have been quite a few Japanese people going into the trees. I have gone there every weekend and if any foreigners are present other than us they arn't skiing off piste.

 

Crazy and Matt B were busted once but that was for exiting the trees right next to a big avy wall.

 

Eventually I will get caught but so far all I've had is a whistle blow in Niseko.

[mattlucas 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by TJ OZ:
having a pipe at 8.30 am just before he was due out.

[AET 0]

I was at Kandatsu in Yuzawa at the weekend and looked out for this because of this thread. Can safely say that EVERY person that we saw going off course and into trees /no-go zones was non-Japanese, without exception. Interesting that.

[damian 0]

Last weekend I was in Naeba, just next door. Without question, every other person I saw off course was Japanese, including J chicks. Not one other Gaijin. Funny that. Furthermore, they were riding the far more risky and in sight of patrol area than I was.

[mina2 6]

Just to add to the "research", there's a fair few Japanese going off at Tenjin - it's more famous for off than off course. But go to most of the other resorts in the region and definitely a rel. large number of gaijin ducking the ropes.

[Siem Reeves 0]

i'm not going to get into whether there are more gaijin off the trail than foreigners, because the point i was trying to make (i think) was that people should be prepared for what comes with going off the trail... and that includes getting yourself out. it's just unfortunate that in the case i described, the japanese guy told the patrol that it was a canadian who had "led him off the trail", laying the blame a bit. on the other hand, we now know that the english warning signs have gone up because he also said that there were no signs in english (why he couldn't read the japanese sign and inform his canadian friend, i dunno). i don't have a problem with the sign at all though, it makes for great entertainment (it should be on that engrish site...) .

 

just a further note, besides jared, pretty much all of my friends that i go off trail and backcountry with are japanese.

[Fattwins 0]

lets just say that the japanese film crew I went with today had no problems with ducking lines and riding insane faces. one guy busted a huge natural half pipe throwing huge tail swings like a surfer on lip, sic. I wish I hadnt forgot my camera. (these guys were not filming me,just got to tag along and ride a sic huge bowl )

[Thunderpants 0]

Excuse me, but!

Please take a look at your history books. go read the bible.

All over the world minorities gets the blame for all sorts of things. Jews, Muslims, blacks, Whites (Zimbabwe), Brazilians and gaijins.....

This is a human mechanism "we and them"

There is nothing new in this discussion. It is unfair to single out the japanese for being "racist" just as it is unfair to single out the gaijins for being unlawful....

 

This tread is only going to be interesting if we start to talk about how we would like to se japanese resorts to develop new areas.

 

Like all other (extreme)sports, people seeks new challenges and it is only natural that snowsports develops too.

 

"bad Gaijins" should know one thing. When people or governments set rules or makes laws, they are to be followed, if You feel that a law is "unsuitable" for you, well... break it! but do it quietly, it will cause you much less trouble, and allow you to do your thing. believe me, i have been smoking weed for 20 years...

 

hmmm there is more, but i'm off to work

ATB

Thunder

[mattlucas 0]

Just because there has been racism in the past does not mean there should be racism now.

 

That is very backward thinking.

[Fattwins 0]

sorry thunder but after living here for so many years i hate the fact that japanese can be so racist or prejudice. Japanese people in many ways dont even know that they are doing it they just blame people and dont understand that it is racist thinking. they need to be told to open there bloody eyes and speak correctly. I do sometimes have to tell the wife no you cant think like that.

[Ocean11 0]

There are a couple of problems here.

 

One is the assumption that the patrol are 'police' - that comes across strongly in Shimba's hilarious description of that Canadian's Japanese 'friend's' behaviour. "Oh no Mr. Cop, it wasn't me Sir what done it. I wuz tole to do it."

If the patrol can go and retrieve gloves that people drop from the lift, it's no big deal for them to go and retrieve people from non-dangerous places off-course. (Personally, I don't think they should do either, but if they're happy to do one, it's no more 'trouble' for them to do the other.)

 

The other problem is how to define 'trouble'. Going off course itself is not making trouble - you go in the trees, you have fun, you come out again without doing any damage to yourself or anything else. Even getting stuck and calling the patrol isn't really bad trouble, although it's not something I'd want to do myself.

 

Real trouble comes when people get hurt - either customers or the patrol. This would happen because either the terrain itself is inherently dangerous, or the rider is not up to the level demanded by the terrain. In these cases, the resort and patrol should give fair warning, and should make clear the limits of their responsibility. Happo has tried to do this, probably excessively timidly, but it's not a bad start.

 

So actually, the source of the 'trouble' is not 'gaijin' or 'Japanese with bad mannaas' - it is the resorts and the patrol for maintaining less than international standards, first of service, and secondly of safety.